daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 12th, 2013, 11:16 PM   #2001
33Hz
Registered User
 
33Hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 436
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
The long distance services of Renfe are on profit since some years ago.

Furthermore, the whole Renfe (including Cercanías and regional trains) got in profits in 2010 for the first time in the history thanks to the profits in the long distance services.
Useful info, thanks.
33Hz no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 13th, 2013, 06:42 AM   #2002
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 32,013
Likes (Received): 15444

Remember too that Renfe and Adif are two different things, and remember also that Feve (the national narrow-gauge-rail company) has been integrated into both Adif and Renfe.

So maybe this year the numbers will show a lesser profit than they would, had Feve not been absorbed.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #2003
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

AFAIK adif is also running on profits in the HSLs
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 02:31 AM   #2004
pmolsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 30
Likes (Received): 1

Which carriage on road?

I am not sure if this has already been covered. I couldn't find anything about it above.

Does anyone know for certain which carriage of the 9 passenger carriages ended up on the road beside the track please? Has it been documented in the news?

Also, the wagon that ended up badly smashed and sitting up on top of another carriage - is it the cafeteria wagon? Every photo I can find of the 730 shows it as carriage number 7 and it has the two windows at the front end. After the crash the windows are facing the rear. That would mean that the carriage flipped over during the crash. But the question is, how then did the back end of the wagon get so badly smashed?

Last edited by pmolsen; August 14th, 2013 at 04:25 AM.
pmolsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 03:06 AM   #2005
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 32,013
Likes (Received): 15444

Why these questions? I find them odd.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 04:23 AM   #2006
pmolsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 30
Likes (Received): 1

Just trying to understand the mechanics of the accident.

There are 3 carriages beyond the overpass, then a big gap, then the other carriages back together near the rear engine. I am guessing therefore that the one on the road is carriage no. 4.

The damage to the cafeteria car is confusing. It would appear to have been caused by colliding with the end of the concrete wall, but that puts the damage at the wrong end of the carriage based on every photo I have been able to find of a complete train, which has the two windows towards the front.

Just go to Flickr and search for Renfe 730. ie:
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=renfe%20730

eg:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6833273226/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ppcharly/6001975608/
pmolsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 05:22 AM   #2007
webeagle12
Registered User
 
webeagle12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Albany
Posts: 1,744
Likes (Received): 450

SPANISH development minister Mrs Ana Pastor has announced a range of measures aimed at improving safety across the whole rail network after the accident at Santiago de Compostela on July 26, which left 79 dead and dozens injured.

Although the technical investigation now being carried out by CIAF, the body responsible for the investigation of railway accidents in Spain, will take several weeks, the government has recognised that the main factors behind the crash were driver error, and the lack of working ETCS equipment.

Speaking before the Parliament transport committee Pastor stated that a thorough inspection of the high-speed network is underway to indentify points where conditions similar to those behind the Santiago crash may occur.

This process will lead to the installation of conventional fixed signals indicating the maximum permitted speed, which were absent on the section of line where the accident occurred, and to the installation of Asfa balises to limit speeds on the approach to sharp curves.

The national automatic train protection (ATP) system was designed in the 1970s to protect trains from passing signals in danger, but will now also be used to enforce permanent speed restrictions at specific locations, such as the Santiago curve.

Pastor did not clarify, though, the reasons for the lack of functioning onboard ETCS equipment on the class 730 set which derailed in Santiago, nor the role that this could have played in the accident.

Trackside ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, but Renfe class 730 sets operate exclusively on Asfa on this route even though they are equipped with ETCS, and operate under this system on the Madrid – Olmedo high-speed line.

Although the curve where the accident happened is not equipped with ETCS, the final ETCS balise on the high-speed line, located 4km from the crash site, would inform the driver (if ETCS is operational on the train) that the train is exiting an ETCS section, obliging him to acknowledge that situation and thus provide indirect information about the actual position of the train.

Trains operating on the Albacete – Alicante line, Spain's newest high-speed line, which opened in June, currently run exclusively on Asfa as ETCS is still being tested. Senior industry sources suggest that ETCS will be commissioned within the next few months, and point to the fact that the line was opened prematurely.

Other measures proposed by Pastor include tightening rules on the use of phones by drivers (an incoming call could have been a contributing factor to driver error in this case), and improved ticketing and passenger counting systems.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542
webeagle12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #2008
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,052
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
The long distance services of Renfe are on profit since some years ago.

Furthermore, the whole Renfe (including Cercanías and regional trains) got in profits in 2010 for the first time in the history thanks to the profits in the long distance services.
let´s not forget that short and medium distance are highly subsidized, and therefore Renfe can make a profit as a company running them, but those activities are not profitable. Long distance services can´t recibe subsidies, acoording to the laws and regulations of the UE.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #2009
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post

let´s not forget that short and medium distance are highly subsidized, and therefore Renfe can make a profit as a company running them, but those activities are not profitable. Long distance services can´t recibe subsidies, acoording to the laws and regulations of the UE.
That is not true. And RENFE could probably make more money on medium distance if they better integrated it in their long distance network.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #2010
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Subsidized lines do not make profit at all, just give a service.

It is true that they could integrate better with other services
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 01:54 AM   #2011
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,052
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That is not true. And RENFE could probably make more money on medium distance if they better integrated it in their long distance network.
Renfe could and should integrate better conventional lines and high speed lines, and therefore integrate medium distance with long distance with a financial gain and therefore reduce losses. Adif is maintaining and building conventional lines throught state subsidy and it is not charging anything to Renfe. Renfe is operating conventional lines with another state subsidy.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 05:34 AM   #2012
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

your sources?

That's completely false.

http://www.adif.es/es_ES/conoceradif...Audit_2011.pdf
Page 85:

Payments received by ADIF in 2011 from all the operators (Renfe+freight companies): 362.515.000 €

289.218.000 € are due to the use of infraestructures (railway)
73.297.000 € are due to the use of stations and other installations (like gauge changers: 3.784.000 €).

http://www.renfe.com/docs/Informe_Ec...vidad_2011.pdf (page 101&126)
Payments made by Renfe to ADIF in 2011: 362.071.000 € (14.8% of operating expenses).

287.700.000€ due to the use of infraestructures (railway)
72.900.000€ due to the use of stations and other installations.

Actually, Adif receives money from the government, but they earn at least enough money from HSLs to maintain them and cover their amortization.
__________________

FlyingRob liked this post
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 07:22 AM   #2013
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmolsen View Post
Just trying to understand the mechanics of the accident.
I think the next-last coach was the one that landed atop the cutting while the last coach bore the worst injuries and most deaths Your query seems fair enough to me
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #2014
pmolsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 30
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
I think the next-last coach was the one that landed atop the cutting while the last coach bore the worst injuries and most deaths Your query seems fair enough to me
Do you have any confirmed source for that please or is it speculation similar to mine?

I have seen photos of one carriage being removed that had the entire side torn out. I presume that was the one that suffered most deaths.
pmolsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 01:33 PM   #2015
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,052
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
your sources?

That's completely false.

http://www.adif.es/es_ES/conoceradif...Audit_2011.pdf
Page 85:

Payments received by ADIF in 2011 from all the operators (Renfe+freight companies): 362.515.000 €

289.218.000 € are due to the use of infraestructures (railway)
73.297.000 € are due to the use of stations and other installations (like gauge changers: 3.784.000 €).

http://www.renfe.com/docs/Informe_Ec...vidad_2011.pdf (page 101&126)
Payments made by Renfe to ADIF in 2011: 362.071.000 € (14.8% of operating expenses).

287.700.000€ due to the use of infraestructures (railway)
72.900.000€ due to the use of stations and other installations.

Actually, Adif receives money from the government, but they earn at least enough money from HSLs to maintain them and cover their amortization.
My sources are the same as yours, we are talking about conventional lines. The information you provide is about high speed lines. Adif received 1.258 million euros to operate and build conventional lines that are directly state owned. Renfe received 507 million euros for the same matters, and also for the high speed medium distance service called Avant.

For your information i post here what i already posted in the Spanish thread months ago, i know what i am discussing about. By the way Adif has not yet published the data for 2012, Renfe did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
Lo prometido. Adif indica en su memoria, en la página 197 en la que desglosa la cifra de negocios, que recibe subvenciones del estado para administrar la red titularidad del estado y para invertir en la red titularidad del estado. Por la primera recibio en 2011 711 Millones de Euros y la segunda 547 Millones de Euros. Por canones recibio 362 millones, de ellos 290 millones por uso de lineas y otros 73 millones por el uso de las estaciones.

No se sabe que gana o que pierde con cada una de estás actividades, pero se sabe que con las dos primeras, que son subvenciones y que decide el estado, gana dinero artificialmente de modo que sin subvencionar directamente la actividad de mantenimiento de la red de alta velocidad en realidad si se está subvencionando dicha actividad. Solo la amortizacion de lineas de alta velocidad (pagina 110) es superior a lo que ingresa por cánones por uso de las lineas de alta velocidad y solo por este hecho el estado debería subvencionar directamente a la alta velocidad. Este es el único coste que sabemos que esta vinculado a la red de alta velocidad, ya que no posee otra red, todo el resto de coste son una bolsa que no está vinculada a ninguna actividad y Adif no nos da el desglose de las distintas partidas y tampoco realiza un resumen con el resultado por actividades, como sencillamente debería.

En total Adif perdió en 2012 297 millones, teniendo en cuanta que ha perdido ese dinero incluso si ha recibido subvenciones por importe de 711 + 547 = 1.258 millones de Euros.
Perdida + subvenciones = 1.555 millones de Euros.

Renfe perdio 355 Millones de Euros y las subvenciones de explotacion por cercanias y media distancia son 507 Millones de Euros, pagina 76. Perdidas mas subvenciones = 863 Millones.

Sabemos pues que hay subvenciones conjuntas recibidas por renfe y Adif de 507 + 1258= 1.765 millones de Euros y perdidas conjuntas por 355 + 297 = 542 millones de Euros.
Lo cual nos da a su vez un total de perdidad + subvenciones conjuntas de renfe y Adif de 2.407 millones de Euros.

Y no sabemos, cuanto pierden las lineas de alta velocidad, ni la red titularidad del estado. Tampoco sabemos el desglose de la subvencion que reciben los servicios de media distancia y cercanias y tampoco que parte de los de media distacia corresponden a la alta velocidad, de modo que por partida doble no podemos saber cuanto le cuesta al estado la alta velocidad, por ejemplo.

Espero haber aclarado alguna cuestión y haber producido nuevas dudas e inquietudes, me ha costado un poco porque no se pretende que se sepa que gasta el estado ni en que. Si a alguien no le gusta que se sepa o que se diga que se aguante. En todo caso la receta siempre la misma. Mas uso de las vías de alta velocidad! y para eso mas red interconectada conforme a la distribucion de la poblacion en el país.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=344
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #2016
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmolsen View Post
Do you have any confirmed source for that please or is it speculation similar to mine?
I'm afraid I can't remember whether the English-language news had been a BBC video or an online newspaper report.
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2013, 01:34 AM   #2017
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post

Renfe could and should integrate better conventional lines and high speed lines, and therefore integrate medium distance with long distance with a financial gain and therefore reduce losses. Adif is maintaining and building conventional lines throught state subsidy and it is not charging anything to Renfe. Renfe is operating conventional lines with another state subsidy.

They could... But after a great deal of years with no official links neither integration, even within HS trains or so, they began offering it... and step by step they are increasing these services.

I know that a lot of things are yet to be done, but after doing nothing, today's better.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2013, 01:57 AM   #2018
pmolsen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 30
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
I'm afraid I can't remember whether the English-language news had been a BBC video or an online newspaper report.
A bit more detective work. The 6 carriages in front of the cafeteria wagon always have the doors towards the front. The two carriages behind the cafeteria have the doors towards the rear.

The two carriages in the ditch just in front of the rear engine both had the doors towards the rear. The carriage on the road had the doors towards the front so it had to be one of the first 6 carriages.

There was a gap behind the first carriage, then two carriages together, then a big gap. So I believe it was most likely carriage 2 or carriage 4. There is a slight chance that it was carriage 6 just in front of the cafeteria wagon.
pmolsen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2013, 03:45 AM   #2019
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmolsen View Post
A bit more detective work. The 6 carriages in front of the cafeteria wagon always have the doors towards the front. The two carriages behind the cafeteria have the doors towards the rear.
That explains why I got lost inside the train when I was assigned a carriage next to the cafeteria the other day...

After using that Alvia, I still think that it's not a High Speed service, the higher speed we caught was 208 Km/h, but it goes at 80-120Km/h most of the journey.
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #2020
Rayancito
Spanish Muslim
 
Rayancito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Madrid
Posts: 3,052
Likes (Received): 1143

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
They could... But after a great deal of years with no official links neither integration, even within HS trains or so, they began offering it... and step by step they are increasing these services.

I know that a lot of things are yet to be done, but after doing nothing, today's better.
I agree. A good example of the improvement in integration is the regional trains in Andalucia, before they used to stop in the old station of Antequera, since some months ago they used instead Antequera Santa Ana, a Station of The Malaga Madrid High Speed Line, and they sell combined tickets to Madrid, therefore people of several stations along the way from Sevilla to Almeria have now much more convinient services to go to Madrid.
Rayancito no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
adif, ave, high speed rail, spain in the world, valencia, zaragoza

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium