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Old September 12th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #2081
AlexNL
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I have to say, the AVRIL is a beautiful train. I've been in the one that was displayed during last year's InnoTrans fair, it's very light and spacious despite the 2+3 seating arrangement.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #2082
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Quote:
Why is it that, in all those beautiful stations or hub's, there are no masses of people to be seen on the pictures?

Just wondering because these station have to require a huge investment and if there is nobody which will use it, why would you build it. But, the benefit of the doubt says that me that these pictures are made before opening...
Well, in fact some stations, and even whole lines were not necessary. There are "ghost" stations, with very little passenger influx . High Speed Rail in Spain is one of the biggest burner of tax money in the country, as it is developed withouth any kind of profitability expectation. There were geopolitical interests, and many thought of the high speed lines as a bond to gather all autonnomous communities around the capital, and thus, a stronger union as a country. Others thought it would be the new golden age od the train, and a matter of modernity. In any case, we have proof enough of the waste of money that it is:

As stated in this press article each kilometer of AVE rail (AVE = "Alta Velocidad Española" -> Spanish High Speed) cost 14.4M €. Also, the nature of the railway causes maintenance to be quite expensive, like 100k-200k € per km each year. That's like 80 times the cost of an spanish motorway per km. In order to make this nonsense profitable, you'll need to have a great amount of passengers. Now look this chart:

image hosted on flickr


Each bar represents the ratio of passangers/km of different High Speed Rail lines in 2008. It's clear that spanish AVE lines (Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona) had a very low ratio. If there are some doubt about profitability, lets hear this from a RENFE (spanish railway operator) ex-counselor:

AVE's madness. Spanish high speed trains are the most expensive public transportation in the world, with the only exception of Shangai's magnetic train that connects the city with the airport (...) it would be cheaper to carry all the AVE passagers in brand new Mercedes luxury cars.


In the end, it was a huge expenditure of public money for the profit of some spanish building firms. People in Spain always are bargained on the same matters: modernity, unity of the country, external image... in the end we all pay, and a few got richer and richer. I don't deny that some high speed was needed, as maybe the connection between Madrid and Seville. But it would be more interesting to enhance non-high speed services.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #2083
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Originally Posted by GerFok View Post
I went through the last 15 pages of this thread but I can't keep myself from posting this question:

Why is it that, in all those beautiful stations or hub's, there are no masses of people to be seen on the pictures?

Just wondering because these station have to require a huge investment and if there is nobody which will use it, why would you build it. But, the benefit of the doubt says that me that these pictures are made before opening...
Spanish HSLs are empty. As far I remember, the Paris-Lyon line (infrastructure, not point-to-point) carries more (maybe the double) passengers than all Spanish HSLs together.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 07:40 PM   #2084
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Spanish HSLs are empty
Have you ever been to Atocha? If so you must be quite blind because the Madrid torrejon de velasco part of the Mad-Sevilla hsl has more than 150 trains per day. Atocha has trains departing every few minutes and remember passengers DO not have permission to acces the platforms so it might look empty.
As a frquent user in the past i can tell you that empty is not what defines the main stations (i do not talk about the other stations in the middle of the countryside that applying the term failure to them is, in most of the cases, the closest to reality)

Quote:
High Speed Rail in Spain is one of the biggest burner of tax money in the country, as it is developed withouth any kind of profitability expectation
Quote:
Spanish high speed trains are the most expensive public transportation in the world
1 it is true that it has consumed high volume of taxes and in some cases the route planning were not the most rational and the priorities given to the destinations that didn´t follow so much profitability aims...
2 You must admit that EU bans any kind of public subsidy to Long distance services ( in this case HSR) and therefore is NOT considered PUBLIC transportation, in fact RENFE DOES MAKE profit from AVE services.
Quote:
Each bar represents the ratio of passangers/km of different High Speed Rail lines in 2008.
Please be realistic. The data about MAD BCN HSL in your graphic is from 2008 when the line was just OPENED and economic crisis was begining.
Second renfe was doing really bad job with fares, however they recently changed the fare system to a more yield management stile and they are gathering the succes as ave and LD passengers are increasing notably....(imho i think the fares are still too high most of the time anyway)
Quote:
stronger union as a country
I think it is important to provide the oportunities to all citiziens of the country to be well comunicated with each other by an alternative mode of transport rather than air or car transport (along truck freight) is making us to import too much oil that make spanish encomy lagg with raising fuel cost
Conventional rail was not always and option (2,5 hs NOW vs the 8 or 12 hs its use to be MAD BCN or many other examples)
Quote:
gather all autonnomous communities around the
Remember it also favours cities like Zaragoza, Cordoba, Cuenca, BIlbao ( as it closer to Bcn too... and more in the future)
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Old September 13th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #2085
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Originally Posted by SAS 16 View Post
Have you ever been to Atocha? If so you must be quite blind because the Madrid torrejon de velasco part of the Mad-Sevilla hsl has more than 150 trains per day. Atocha has trains departing every few minutes and remember passengers DO not have permission to acces the platforms so it might look empty.
As a frquent user in the past i can tell you that empty is not what defines the main stations (i do not talk about the other stations in the middle of the countryside that applying the term failure to them is, in most of the cases, the closest to reality)

1 it is true that it has consumed high volume of taxes and in some cases the route planning were not the most rational and the priorities given to the destinations that didn´t follow so much profitability aims...
2 You must admit that EU bans any kind of public subsidy to Long distance services ( in this case HSR) and therefore is NOT considered PUBLIC transportation, in fact RENFE DOES MAKE profit from AVE services.
Please be realistic. The data about MAD BCN HSL in your graphic is from 2008 when the line was just OPENED and economic crisis was begining.
Second renfe was doing really bad job with fares, however they recently changed the fare system to a more yield management stile and they are gathering the succes as ave and LD passengers are increasing notably....(imho i think the fares are still too high most of the time anyway)
I think it is important to provide the oportunities to all citiziens of the country to be well comunicated with each other by an alternative mode of transport rather than air or car transport (along truck freight) is making us to import too much oil that make spanish encomy lagg with raising fuel cost
Conventional rail was not always and option (2,5 hs NOW vs the 8 or 12 hs its use to be MAD BCN or many other examples)
Remember it also favours cities like Zaragoza, Cordoba, Cuenca, BIlbao ( as it closer to Bcn too... and more in the future)
2008.Yes

And 2013?
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Old September 13th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #2086
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Quote:
Please be realistic. The data about MAD BCN HSL in your graphic is from 2008 when the line was just OPENED and economic crisis was begining.
That's the data i just found. I'll be happy to see traffic growing in those lines.

Quote:
You must admit that EU bans any kind of public subsidy to Long distance services ( in this case HSR) and therefore is NOT considered PUBLIC transportation, in fact RENFE DOES MAKE profit from AVE services.
Because RENFE is only the operator. The big expenditure (line building and maintenance) iis made by ADIF which is a public entity.

Quote:
I think it is important to provide the oportunities to all citiziens of the country to be well comunicated with each other by an alternative mode of transport rather than air or car transport (along truck freight) is making us to import too much oil that make spanish encomy lagg with raising fuel cost
Conventional rail was not always and option (2,5 hs NOW vs the 8 or 12 hs its use to be MAD BCN or many other examples)
In fact, in most cases, AVE is too expensive, even for middle class people. The main problem on spanish economy, i assure you, is not oil dependency, but huge public expenditure in protectionism, and mad, huge, unnecesarry infraestructures and events (Sevilla Expo 92, Zaragoza Expo 2008, America's Cup, Valencia F1, etc.), while they're cutting on education and health. Anyway, i admit Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona would be reasonable lines if they had been planned more cleverly.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #2087
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Have you ever been to Atocha?
Yes, I have ever visited (and liked) most of Spain except La Rioja and the Canary islands. And I have seen most railways quite empty (one train per hour on average on Cordoba-Malaga HSL is not that much...).

Atocha has many trains, but is also the terminus in the biggest city of Spain, where all lines from the south converge.

However, it must be said that most old Spanish lines are so slow and through empty lands that it would have been difficult to attract much passenger traffic on them.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 11:04 PM   #2088
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
However, it must be said that most old Spanish lines are so slow and through empty lands that it would have been difficult to attract much passenger traffic on them.
That is due to irregular density. Inmigration from the countryside to the industrial areas in the 50s-60s caused the inner regions to have very low densities, while Madrid and the coastal industrial areas (Barcelona, Bilbao, Valencia, etc) went very dense:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f/EspDens2.jpg
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Old September 13th, 2013, 11:20 PM   #2089
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In fact, in most cases, AVE is too expensive, even for middle class people. The main problem on spanish economy, i assure you, is not oil dependency, but huge public expenditure in protectionism, and mad, huge, unnecesarry infraestructures and events (Sevilla Expo 92, Zaragoza Expo 2008, America's Cup, Valencia F1, etc.), while they're cutting on education and health. Anyway, i admit Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona would be reasonable lines if they had been planned more cleverly.
What was built in Zaragoza because of 2008 international exhibition?
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Old September 14th, 2013, 02:25 AM   #2090
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The big expenditure (line building and maintenance) iis made by ADIF which is a public entity.
It is true that adif has the huge debt however the AVE is profitable and at the same time is paying the maintenance and amortization costs thus no direct public money to this function.

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but huge public expenditure in protectionism
Cannot agree more with these
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Old September 14th, 2013, 03:26 AM   #2091
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mama mia que lindo tren en el ultimo
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Old September 14th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #2092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
What was built in Zaragoza because of 2008 international exhibition?
Gallery: http://www.parquedelagua.com/index.php/galeria/
Map: http://www.parquedelagua.com/index.p...rque-del-agua/

Pavilions and buildings, among others. Total expenditure: 700M €. Now they're arranging the pavillions as offices... very expensive offices. There's a plan to create a bussiness park, and settle there some insurance companies and banks. But all of it, at middle term. Actually, most of the facilities remain withouth any use. The same happened with most of the pavillions in La Cartuja island in Sevilla Expo 92 (total expenditure 673M € -only in La Cartuja island- in the early 90s).

If you're interested in this kind of thing, better read this:
http://content.time.com/time/world/a...114888,00.html

This madness begun with Bilbao's Guggenheim museum (1997). That was a big expenditure, but in the end it had a huge success, for different reasons. It keeps atracting tourism nowadays, created oportunities for new hotels and restaurants, and served as a landmark for the modernisation of the city. At this point, many other cities in Spain went looking for some avant-garde, expensive buildings or spaces, following the example of Bilbao. Some of them succeded, but many didn't, and just managed to expend tons of money with little profitability for the cities.

Last edited by mckeenan; September 14th, 2013 at 06:12 PM.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 01:33 AM   #2093
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Sorry for off-topic. I just asked about railway infrastructures in 2008 in Zaragoza because all was done there. Station was built and, happenly, in was quite close to the venue site, so no investment neccesary.

But, by the way, let me answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mckeenan View Post
Gallery: http://www.parquedelagua.com/index.php/galeria/
Map: http://www.parquedelagua.com/index.p...rque-del-agua/

Pavilions and buildings, among others. Total expenditure: 700M €. Now they're arranging the pavillions as offices... very expensive offices. There's a plan to create a bussiness park, and settle there some insurance companies and banks. But all of it, at middle term. Actually, most of the facilities remain withouth any use. The same happened with most of the pavillions in La Cartuja island in Sevilla Expo 92 (total expenditure 673M € -only in La Cartuja island- in the early 90s).

I live in Zaragoza, was there several days and watched the construction since the city was chosen in December 2004.

Thanks to the case of Seville, there were many things that were improved in Zaragoza not to lose money. Obviously many things may be improved next time... but I do not consider it money gone.

Pavilions were designed to be adapted for business.
Today, several ones are used by entreprises
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...03566&page=159

and some of them are used for ALL (absolutely all) the courts of the city. All courts, judge and anything related to justice moved there in spring.
Many of them needed to be refurbished and... a totally movement made having them together in two buildings, and no necessary to spend money in all buildings.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...537693&page=17

I would state that today, 30-40% remains to be used only.



Quote:
If you're interested in this kind of thing, better read this:
http://content.time.com/time/world/a...114888,00.html
Had readen that article before and it is true... but I think that everyone would understand that there are fatal projects, ruin projects and some of them that aren't bad at all.

Zaragoza one would be the last case.

Let me write one more example.

Castellon airport costed too much and it is not operative neither it will be because it is not homologated
No planes have landed there

In Teruel an "airport" (no decks, no buildings, no passenger facilities) has been opened this summer. Total cost 40 million euro. Used for maintenance. One French entreprise hired it because no air traffic, dry weather, etc... and no need to send planes to the United States to make the same maintenance in another base they have there (80.000 euro saved in fuel only for a return journey)
This entreprise will pay more than one million per year for 25 years. The full investment will return in 25 years.
Just 40 million euro and in the first week operating there, two Boeing 747 landed there and it is possible to see them from the motorway.


Different cases obviously. Waste of money in one of them, employment in the second cse





And... from my side, I finish the off topic
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Old September 17th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #2094
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Originally Posted by santivitoria View Post
Renfe supera la tragedia del AVE con un aumento de viajeros del 42% en agosto

http://www.elconfidencial.com/empres...-agosto_29027/

Los mayores crecimientos en agosto dentro de las rutas del AVE se corresponden con las de Sevilla y Málaga a Valencia, con un incremento del 111% en viajeros y del 58% en ingresos. A continuación figura el corredor Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona, seguido de las líneas que unen Barcelona con Málaga y Sevilla, respectivamente. En Larga Distancia, los mayores crecimientos fijados en julio corresponden con las rutas Madrid-Galicia, Barcelona-Gijón, Madrid-León-Ponferrada, Barcelona-Pamplona, Madrid-Almería, Madrid-País Vasco y Madrid-Santander.
Summary: Renfe AVE ridership have raised 42% and revenue 21% this august from august last year. (25% passengers and 8% increase revenue without new services opened this year) with increases of 111% in Valencia-Sevilla/Malaga. In addition Long distance services have also increased both passengers and revenue...
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:42 AM   #2095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrobico View Post
2008.Yes

And 2013?
Much better, for all we know (see post just above by SAS 16 ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes, I have ever visited (and liked) most of Spain except La Rioja and the Canary islands. And I have seen most railways quite empty (one train per hour on average on Cordoba-Malaga HSL is not that much...).
Can you please tell me how many TGV per hour can be seen between Dijon and Belfort, or between Champagne-Ardenne TGV and Lorraine TGV?

Besides, I guess that you are fully aware that trains are much less subsidized than in France, and that buses rival trains in many routes (frequency, fares), which isn´t the case in France, where buses are much less developed.

Quote:
Atocha has many trains, but is also the terminus in the biggest city of Spain, where all lines from the south converge.
But not those from the north.
And more importantly, the lines to the north are far from finished.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #2096
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And I think that it's obvious that which each new inauguration, the new line attracts passengers to the other lines (some transversal have shown to be successful, and Renfe is guaranteeing some connections despite some frequencies).

You have to think that the HS Network of Spain is the core network, and it's not complete, because the state of the old network isn't competitive at all and it's cheaper to build a new HSL than to upgrade a line (this is true in most cases, while in some of them, the old line or platform has been reused).
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:59 AM   #2097
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And I think that it's obvious that which each new inauguration, the new line attracts passengers to the other lines (some transversal have shown to be successful, and Renfe is guaranteeing some connections despite some frequencies).
What´s so obvious to you might not be so obvious to others.

Quote:
You have to think that the HS Network of Spain is the core network, and it's not complete, because the state of the old network isn't competitive at all and it's cheaper to build a new HSL than to upgrade a line (this is true in most cases, while in some of them, the old line or platform has been reused).
I could disagree in some cases. Not in others.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:55 PM   #2098
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Does anyone know what's the current market share of HSR on the Madrid-Barcelona route in relation to air traffic and what is was before the inauguration of that HSR route?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 05:12 PM   #2099
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Does anyone know what's the current market share of HSR on the Madrid-Barcelona route in relation to air traffic and what is was before the inauguration of that HSR route?
Right now it´s like 50-something % for rail (and still improving) > 40-something % for plane.

Before the HSL it was like 4-8 trains per day < the most used aerial route in Europe.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #2100
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You don't happen to have a link for that?

I currently have to write an essay about the proposed Australian HSR between Sydney and Melbourne and the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona is IMO the perfect comparison (the two largest cities of their countries with similar metropolitan populations, a similar distance between them and both among the busiest air routes in the world)
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