daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 19th, 2013, 06:58 PM   #2101
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Madrid-Galicia HSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aranou View Post
At Valorio, just off Zamora (entre the two tunnels), from Ourense.

Source: La Opinión de Zamora


Entering Zamora from Madrid.

Source: La Opinión de Zamora


Between Zamora and La Hiniesta.

Source: La Opinión de Zamora
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARBALOSIELLA View Post
Near Toro (between Olmedo and Zamora)





Quote:
Originally Posted by CARBALOSIELLA View Post
Between Toro and Zamora:

Viaduct over river Douro (Duero in Spanish):

http://goo.gl/maps/AwJbe










Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruela View Post
Viaduct over river Esla this week:



The same viaduct, september the 3rd, 2013:

__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 19th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #2102
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
You don't happen to have a link for that?
No, I can´t remember one source in particular, but there are plenty of these data. Ask in the Spanish forum.

Quote:
I currently have to write an essay about the proposed Australian HSR between Sydney and Melbourne and the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona is IMO the perfect comparison (the two largest cities of their countries with similar metropolitan populations, a similar distance between them and both among the busiest air routes in the world)
Good luck with your essay.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 07:48 PM   #2103
Manamer
-
 
Manamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,453
Likes (Received): 870

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
You don't happen to have a link for that?
58% Train http://www.elperiodico.com/es/notici...-avion-2497650
__________________
"Madre mía, madre mía, es chica la avería."

437.001, SAS 16 liked this post
Manamer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #2104
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

the share has been around 50-50% since the inauguration but since Renfe lowered the ticket prices it seems that the train is winning the battle.

It's still possible to get cheaper plain tickets that train tickets but the difference isn't that big now.
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #2105
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Much better, for all we know (see post just above by SAS 16 ). Can you please tell me how many TGV per hour can be seen between Dijon and Belfort, or between Champagne-Ardenne TGV and Lorraine TGV? Besides, I guess that you are fully aware that trains are much less subsidized than in France, and that buses rival trains in many routes (frequency, fares), which isn´t the case in France, where buses are much less developed. But not those from the north. And more importantly, the lines to the north are far from finished.
Afaik long distance trains aren't subsidized in France. And I see a lot that RENFE does (or more precisely, doesn't) that has no excuse.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 09:33 PM   #2106
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Afaik long distance trains aren't subsidized in France.
IC Bordeaux-Nantes.
IC Nîmes-Clermont Ferrand.
IC Paris-Boulogne sur Mer...

Shall I go on?

Quote:
And I see a lot that RENFE does (or more precisely, doesn't) that has no excuse.
I don´t understand what you say here.
If you´re using Google translate, you could as well write it in French and I´d try and translate.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 09:51 PM   #2107
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

I'd say his English is quite clear here and the thing he questions is Renfe's policies in ticketing, train frequencies, timetables etc. He is right to an extent, albeit I think it's already much better than it used to be.

In comparison to SBB very few things elsewhere come out in a favorable light
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #2108
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I'd say his English is quite clear here and the thing he questions is Renfe's policies in ticketing, train frequencies, timetables etc. He is right to an extent, albeit I think it's already much better than it used to be.
I´m not sure he meant that.

Quote:
In comparison to SBB very few things elsewhere come out in a favorable light
Japan... and that´s about it.
Anyway, size matters too, it´s always easier to run a network in a smaller country.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #2109
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Sure although of course Japan goes against that theory.

I believe Swiss railway system was saved by the conservatism of the country. Several other European countries had networks of similar density, but unlike the Swiss they closed large parts of it in 50-ties and 60-ties when many thought that local railways are an outdated technology.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #2110
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Can you please tell me how many TGV per hour can be seen between Dijon and Belfort, or between Champagne-Ardenne TGV and Lorraine TGV?

Besides, I guess that you are fully aware that trains are much less subsidized than in France, and that buses rival trains in many routes (frequency, fares), which isn´t the case in France, where buses are much less developed.
40 and 96 per day respectively. In the first case it is not that much, between 1 and 2 per hour per direction on average.

But there are between 210 and 250 on the LGV Sud-Est, and again around 200 on the LGV Nord and Atlantique near Paris (see http://ferrocarta.net/france/france_fr.html).

I don't know how many trains per day there are on the Madrid-Barcelona, but I doubt they are more than 100 a day on the section near Madrid.

I don't say that the Madrid-Barcelona line was a waste of money or that the existing Madrid-Galicia line could be upgraded without an HSL, but that most Spanish railways don't have much traffic, compared to other European states.

By the way, I like the idea of building the Galicia HSL single track...I suppose the second tubes of the tunnels are not bored at full profile, aren't they? Also downsizing gigantic projects considering also regauging of existing lines is a good thing. I hope to see the 1668 gauge relegated to some museums as soon as possible!
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #2111
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
40 and 96 per day respectively. In the first case it is not that much, between 1 and 2 per hour per direction on average.

But there are between 210 and 250 on the LGV Sud-Est, and again around 200 on the LGV Nord and Atlantique near Paris (see http://ferrocarta.net/france/france_fr.html).

I don't know how many trains per day there are on the Madrid-Barcelona, but I doubt they are more than 100 a day on the section near Madrid.
Misconceptions again and again.
The Madrid-Barcelona HSL is not the busiest in number of trains!!

HSL Madrid-Barcelona (busiest section near Madrid, Vallecas-Plasencia de Jalón): 54 (AVE Madrid-Barcelona) + 8 (Alvia Madrid-Pamplona/Madrid-Logroño) + 2 (AVE Madrid-Huesca) +6 (AVE Barcelona-Seville/Barcelona-Malaga).
That makes 70 trains per day between Vallecas and Plasencia de Jalón, at least.

HSL Madrid-Barcelona (section Barcelona-Lleida): 54 (AVE Madrid-Barcelona) + 6 (AVE Barcelona-Seville/Barcelona-Malaga) + 12 (Alvia Barcelona-Bilbao/Barcelona-Valladolid/Barcelona-Irun/Barcelona-Gijon/Barcelona-Pamplona/Barcelona-Corunna/Barcelona-Vigo) + 10 (Avant Barcelona-Lleida).
That makes 82 trains per day, at least! The Madrid-Barcelona HSL is busier on the Barcelona side rather than on the Madrid side.

HSL Madrid-Seville (busiest section near Madrid, Perales del Río-Torrejón de Velasco): 6 (AVE Barcelona Seville/Barcelona-Malaga) + 24 (AVE Madrid-Malaga) + 34 (AVE Madrid-Seville) + 8 (Alvia Madrid-Cadiz/Gijon-Cadiz/Santander-Cadiz)+ 2 (Alvia Madrid-Huelva) + 4 (Altaria Madrid-Granada) + 4 (Altaria Madrid-Algeciras) + 26 (Avant Madrid-Toledo) + 22 (Avant Madrid-Puertollano) + 18 (AVE/Alvia Madrid-Alicante/Santander-Alicante/Gijon-Alicante) + 32 (AVE/Alvia Madrid-Valencia/Madrid-Valencia-Barcelona/Gijon-Castellon).
That makes 180 trains per day at least.

And yes, I know, they´re doubling it, but there are more extensions to come, aren´t they?

Quote:
I don't say that the Madrid-Barcelona line was a waste of money or that the existing Madrid-Galicia line could be upgraded without an HSL, but that most Spanish railways don't have much traffic, compared to other European states.
Other states do NOT have the constraint of the gauge AND the geography.

Quote:
By the way, I like the idea of building the Galicia HSL single track...I suppose the second tubes of the tunnels are not bored at full profile, aren't they?
Not that I know, for what I´ve seen. Or at least, not yet.

Quote:
Also downsizing gigantic projects considering also regauging of existing lines is a good thing.
Be aware that they´ll put up a battle.
Galicia is fed up of having the worst rail connections, and they´ve had the two last Ministers for Transports & Infrastructures and now also Rajoy.

Quote:
I hope to see the 1668 gauge relegated to some museums as soon as possible!
So do I.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

SAS 16, Coccodrillo liked this post

Last edited by 437.001; September 20th, 2013 at 02:03 AM.
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #2112
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In comparison to SBB very few things elsewhere come out in a favorable light
SBB is bad at something Spain needs dearly: very high speed trains, since it has a lot of big cities (Barcelona, Cordoba, Sevilla etc) that are located far away from each other, far away from Madrid and often separated only by small cities or just large swaths of sparsely inhabited hamlets.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 01:35 AM   #2113
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
SBB is bad at something Spain needs dearly: very high speed trains, since it has a lot of big cities (Barcelona, Cordoba, Sevilla etc) that are located far away from each other, far away from Madrid and often separated only by small cities or just large swaths of sparsely inhabited hamlets.
SBB has no high speed lines, but if they had I bet they would be very efficient at operating those as well

Back to Spanish news now...
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #2114
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
SBB is bad at something Spain needs dearly: very high speed trains, since it has a lot of big cities (Barcelona, Cordoba, Sevilla etc) that are located far away from each other, far away from Madrid and often separated only by small cities or just large swaths of sparsely inhabited hamlets.
Not just that, to keep on answering Coccodrillo (although, to be fair, you don´t want to compare Spain to Switzerland unless it´s for the mountains).
Spain, unlike France and Britain (Germany is in an entirely different situation, can´t be compared to Spain in railways), has one big capital, Madrid, yes, but also has a second big city, that is, Barcelona (nearly the size of Madrid), apart from other mid-size cities (Seville, Bilbao, Valencia, Zaragoza, Alicante, etc).

You don´t see the country the same way from Madrid than you see it from Barcelona.

From Madrid, Spain looks like a wheel. Not like an octopus (like France from Paris, or Britain from London... or Spain from Barcelona).
That´s because Madrid, unlike London and Paris, is located right in the middle of the country, in its geographical center.

From Barcelona instead, things look much more like one sees them from Paris or London (Spain as an octopus), as Barcelona is in a corner of the country.
This explains why the busier section of the Madrid-Barcelona HSL is the one that´s closer to Barcelona, since more trains have to use it to go to more places, while from Madrid there´s a variety of HSLs to be used, depending on where you want to go.

And that´s just the beginning, since more extensions are to come.

Inner sources are much more worried about the situation at Barcelona-Sants station (which is approaching saturation) than at Madrid-Atocha or Madrid-Chamartín stations.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

SAS 16 liked this post

Last edited by 437.001; September 20th, 2013 at 01:43 AM.
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 09:17 AM   #2115
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I'd say his English is quite clear here and the thing he questions is Renfe's policies in ticketing, train frequencies, timetables etc. He is right to an extent, albeit I think it's already much better than it used to be.
That's indeed what I meant. If you go to www.renfe.es and you look up times and prices between two random railway stations you will in many case come up empty, or not get all results. RENFE is AFAIK the only railway in Europe where that is the case, and it is pure lack of will. You can't blame this on a different operating environment.
That is what I mean when I say that in my opinion RENFE is very good at running trains, but not good at running a railway network.

For example: Look up times for Girona - Cadiz on both www.bahn.de and www.renfe.es. Bahn.de shows me 5 departures with similar trip times and nicely spaced departure times. www.renfe.es however only shows me one. This proves that the network is actually a lot better than RENFE itself makes it appear.
Hiding the quality of your product from your customers is not good practice if you want to make money...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #2116
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416

Oh, it was that! Sorry, I hadn´t got it!

Yes, you are right, right now I´m having to advice a British forumer on another site (a British one) on how to get from Girona to Madrid by AVE, since on the date he asked there were no trains uploaded yet.

At least they´ve improved the fare system, but the uploading of trains on the web (even the internal one at times!! ) should definitely improve.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2013, 12:58 PM   #2117
SAS 16
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Madrid Spain European Union
Posts: 283
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS 16 View Post
Foto por oscar lopez http://trainspo.com/photo/42851/
Talgo Avril
__________________
SAS 16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2013, 10:31 PM   #2118
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Note the conventional coach on the right (very rare in Spain nowadays) and the S-130 passenger end cars resulted from their conversion to S-730...these are useless now, except if Renfe orders more S-130, which I doubt.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2013, 10:45 PM   #2119
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15416


Not that rare, since all class 490 trains (the Alaris) have had to be withdrawn, so now there are some classic services again (Arco).
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2013, 11:22 PM   #2120
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Why have Class 490 trains been withdrawn? Is it a temporary measure or permanent withdrawel from service?
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
adif, ave, high speed rail, spain in the world, valencia, zaragoza

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium