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Old October 18th, 2013, 10:47 PM   #2181
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What about:
- high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
- high-peed line Sevilla-Faro
- high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #2182
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One could always wish for more, but I don't think any other place will beat Spain for the density of high speed lines (when all currently under construction are finished) any time soon.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #2183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
In my opinion Spain should have been much more careful when building infrastructures (not only railways), however they are there, and many are still incomplete.
Thatīs the difference, you see.
You have the same rail network since more than a century.
Here large chunks of it couldnīt be used to having a competitive long distance passenger traffic.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The plan recently presented by Spanish government consists mainly in the activation of already partially built lines, building just the strict minimum necessary to use them, which is a good thing.

The only exception is the Galicia line, which will be built from scratch, but single track.
Thatīs not correct, itīs not being built from scratch, work had started years ago already.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As far I know, all other HSLs which will be opened in the next 10 years or so are already under construction, sometimes quite advanced.
For 'advanced', Iīd only understand Valencia-Xativa-La Encina junction, Olmedo junction-Zamora, and Valladolid-Venta de Baņos-Palencia-Leon.
The rest still has way to go.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I agree with that, although I don't think railways were a main culprit (highways were worse, housing and public buildings much worse) but now it makes perfect sense to finish in a reasonably short time. Most of the Galicia line was started before the crisis as well. Also this kind of public spending preserves some extra employment and of course the newly built lines are likely to be used for another century at least.
Spot on.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
By the way I think the worst part of the crisis is probably already over.
Touch wood.

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Once all the HSL currently under construction are finished (around 2020) there will be no need of investing great sums in new lines, the main corridors will be already in service. I would say that the only necessary lines that are not currently under construction are Burgos - Vitoria and Valencia - Castellón.
And maybe Zaragoza-Pamplona-Vitoria or similar.

Quote:
As I said, the rest of HSL (Galicia, Basque Y, Asturias, Murcia, Granada, Almería and luckily most parts of Extremadura) will be ready by 2020 or a few years later unless there is a crackdown.
Not for 2020. Later. Almeria and Extremadura in particular (it depends on the Portuguese, that one).

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about:
- high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
Under construction between Navalmoral de la Mata and the Portuguese border, awaiting any decision by the Portuguese government to start the Badajoz-Evora link, which is the key point to reach Lisbon in a decent travel time (even if itīs not high speed yet, an Alvia could do it in a rather decent travel time).

The sector between Navalmoral and Madrid hasnīt started, there might be some debate about serving Toledo or not. And lack of money, obviously.

Besides, the section between Navalmoral and Madrid enables trains to run at speed, even if itīs a classic line, while between Navalmoral and Merida wasnīt the case.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- high-speed line Sevilla-Faro
It is not even being discussed in the railway forums at all, that gives you an idea...
Do not hope for that in the next 50/100 years.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse
Environmentally impossible.
It should be a classic new main line with a base tunnel, which is another thing. But the French arenīt interested (and theyīre right).

Besides, the reopening of the old Canfranc international line might work instead (to an extent).
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Old October 19th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #2184
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It was probably written about many pages back here, but can someone remind what is the current plan if any for Burgos-Vitoria section? It's a relatively important section (more than Galicia line?) and both the Basque Y and line until Burgos is under construction and likely to be finished within 5 years.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 01:25 AM   #2185
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Burgos - Vitoria unfortunately is extremely delayed. By now in project, but not under construction. It will be a gap in the network for a long time, maybe for the next 10 years.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #2186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It was probably written about many pages back here, but can someone remind what is the current plan if any for Burgos-Vitoria section? It's a relatively important section (more than Galicia line?) and both the Basque Y and line until Burgos is under construction and likely to be finished within 5 years.
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Burgos - Vitoria unfortunately is extremely delayed. By now in project, but not under construction. It will be a gap in the network for a long time, maybe for the next 10 years.
Correct.

Besides, it is not more important than the Galicia HSL, as long as travel time improvement goes.

Galicia has indecent travel times. The Basque Country, no matter wether if it is an international line or not, is also seeing works that will dramatically improve travel time, and travel times there arenīt as bad as Galiciaīs.

As for Burgos-Vitoria strictly speaking, it will quite possibly be third rail.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:17 AM   #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Correct.

Besides, it is not more important than the Galicia HSL, as long as travel time improvement goes.

Galicia has indecent travel times. The Basque Country, no matter wether if it is an international line or not, is also seeing works that will dramatically improve travel time, and travel times there arenīt as bad as Galiciaīs.

As for Burgos-Vitoria strictly speaking, it will quite possibly be third rail.
It could be a temporary solution, for allowing continuity for Iberian and UIC gauge at the same time. However, electrification could be a bigger problem.

At the end, it is mostly a problem of marketing: being able to offer "AVE" services to the Basque Country instead of Alvia, even if we know that Alvia can offer almost the same travel times.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:43 AM   #2188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
It could be a temporary solution, for allowing continuity for Iberian and UIC gauge at the same time. However, electrification could be a bigger problem.
The Alvia have no problem in changing the tension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
At the end, it is mostly a problem of marketing: being able to offer "AVE" services to the Basque Country instead of Alvia, even if we know that Alvia can offer almost the same travel times.
Mmm... ...mmm... ...meh.

Maybe Bilbao and San Sebastian perhaps, but still, if you look at how passenger numbers are increasing at Vitoria (and Pamplona), Iīd say that it doesnīt really matter wether itīs an Alvia or an AVE, as long as people get a decent travel time.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:44 AM   #2189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
It could be a temporary solution, for allowing continuity for Iberian and UIC gauge at the same time. However, electrification could be a bigger problem.
Why would electrification be a problem? One could electrify pretty much any railway as long as there is $$$ for it...
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #2190
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Unless heīs thinking about freight (and thus, being off-topic), I canīt imagine what he meant...
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:51 AM   #2191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
The Alvia have no problem in changing the tension.



Mmm... ...mmm... ...meh.

Maybe Bilbao and San Sebastian perhaps, but still, if you look at how passenger numbers are increasing at Vitoria (and Pamplona), Iīd say that it doesnīt really matter wether itīs an Alvia or an AVE, as long as people get a decent travel time.
Yes, I know...

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Why would electrification be a problem? One could electrify pretty much any railway as long as there is $$$ for it...
Well, the traditional electrification system in Spain (the one currently installed in the classic line Burgos-Vitoria) is 3000V DC, and on HSL is 25kV 50Hz. The AVE trainsets (the ones with the silver band, S100, S102/112, S103) are only for 25kV, except some S100 which have been adapted for the French 1500V DC for international services on Southern France lines. So, if you don't change electrification on the classic line, and you don't adapt the trainsets, only Alvia will be able to reach the Basque Country.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:08 AM   #2192
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So?
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:21 AM   #2193
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If you keep the 3000V electrification on the classic line with third rail, you cannot use full high speed rolling stock up to the Basque Country: it means not being able to run at +300 km/h from Madrid to Burgos.

If the classic line is upgraded to 25 kV, then you need to make sure most of the rolling stock (of any kind) is dual-voltage, because this line is one of the trunk lines of the country. It is not simple branch which is upgraded and then rolling stock is not that critical.

There you have the problem. For sure Renfe is buying mostly dual-voltage rolling stock, and in the future maybe there will be trainsets able to run at 300 km/h and to change their gauge.

What I was marking was that the gap between Burgos and Vitoria, it is not only a problem only for that stretch, but force trains to run from Madrid to Burgos at 250 km/h even if the line allows much higher speeds.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:43 AM   #2194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
If you keep the 3000V electrification on the classic line with third rail, you cannot use full high speed rolling stock up to the Basque Country: it means not being able to run at +300 km/h from Madrid to Burgos.
That is, unless you order some gauge-changing, tension-switching, capable of reaching 300 km/h new rolling stock.

And I think thatīs the idea Renfe and the Ministry have.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:46 AM   #2195
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I agree with you, and I hope so too.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #2196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- high-speed line Sevilla-Faro
The Spanish side of this line can be divided in two sections: Sevilla - Huelva and Huelva - Portuguese border.

Between Sevilla and Huelva there is a conventional electrified single-track railway line. It sees some commuter traffic in the Sevilla boundaries (only since two years ago), regional traffic between both cities and also long distance traffic (alvia) between Madrid and Huelva, using the HSL between Madrid and Sevilla. I don't think that building a new HSL is necessary, but there should be plans to upgrade it, as it is being done in the Sevilla - Cádiz line (double track and new layout in some stretches).

Between Huelva and the Portuguese border the conventional line was closed in 1985. If reopened, it would be useful for commuter traffic between Lepe and Huelva. In addition, there could also be regional and even long distance services from Sevilla and Madrid, as the beaches in the area are very touristic. I think that just with reopening and electrification the line would be successful.

However, in order to cross the border and connect the Portuguese and the Spanish networks at that point, a bridge across the Guadiana river should be built, as in the past the connection between both lines was made by ferry. Sadly, I don't think there is much interest now to promote this connection, as improving and electrifying the three other existing connections (Vigo - Porto, Salamanca - Guarda and Badajoz - Évora) has more priority.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #2197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Once all the HSL currently under construction are finished (around 2020) there will be no need of investing great sums in new lines, the main corridors will be already in service. I would say that the only necessary lines that are not currently under construction are Burgos - Vitoria and Valencia - Castellón. As I said, the rest of HSL (Galicia, Basque Y, Asturias, Murcia, Granada, Almería and luckily most parts of Extremadura) will be ready by 2020 or a few years later unless there is a crackdown.
They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage. Madrid Chamartin, Madrid Atocha, Barcelona Sagrera, Barcelona Sants, Valencia Nord, Bilbao Abando, Gijon Jovellanos, Alicante terminal, Murcia del Carmen, Granada railway station, Tarragona-Reus railway station, Vitoria-Gasteiz railway station, Valladolid railway station, Leon railway station, Oviedo Norte etc.

These are not cheap renovations we're talking about, but each of these stations will cost in the 100 to 1000 million euros range. In fact, Both Madrid Chamartin and Barcelona Sagrera will utimately cost several billions of euros, and it would not surprise me if also Valencia Nord ends up costing in excess of a billion euros.

Last edited by gincan; October 19th, 2013 at 02:21 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:14 PM   #2198
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They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage. Madrid Chamartin, Madrid Atocha, Barcelona Sagrera, Barcelona Sants, Valencia Nord, Bilbao Abando, Gijon Jovellanos, Alicante terminal, Murcia del Carmen, Granada railway station, Tarragona-Reus railway station, Vitoria-Gasteiz railway station, Valladolid railway station, Leon railway station, etc.

These are not cheap renovations we're talking about, but each of these stations will cost in the 100 to 1000 million euros range. In fact, Both Madrid Chamartin and Barcelona Sagrera will utimately cost several billions of euros, and it would not surprise me if also Valencia Nord ends up costing in excess of a billion euros.
That's a good point. There is lot of work to be done about stations renovation.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #2199
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Still, overspending in infrastructure leaves a legacy that is more permanent than - say - overspending on administrative civil service... the rail lines, highways, housing will be there long after the crisis passes.
They will be there to maintain as well. And since so many HSR lines are not making money to pay off the initial investment at all this is a serious issue.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #2200
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They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage.
What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...
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