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Old October 19th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #2201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about:
- high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
- high-peed line Sevilla-Faro
- high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse
And Vigo-Porto...
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Old October 19th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #2202
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...
Madrid-Atocha has:
-15 terminus platforms (Puerta de Atocha) which are intensively used as operations in a terminus layout, which is a big limitation (all UIC gauge)
-10 through platforms in Atocha-Cercanías, mostly intended for commuter train services, and some transversal regional and long distance transverse services (Iberian gauge)
-4 through platforms for the new HSL tunnel from Atocha to Chamartín for transverse HS services (UIC gauge)

Madrid-Atocha and Barcelona-Sants are saturated. For sure, switch of the whole network to UIC will improve efficiency of operations in the stations.

For the solution of the capacity of Atocha the solution is the new HS tunnel from Atocha to Chamartín, using the underused Chamartín for more services, and increasing the number of transverse services through Madrid which avoids overload of terminus tracks in Atocha. Chamartín is underused, but kind of out-of-dated, apart of its surroundings which are crappy and dirty.

Barcelona-Sants is overused as well, mostly because of commuter trains, not because HS services. New signage system should be installed for optimizing the utilization of its long platforms. On the other hand, the capacity will improve as Sagrera station is opened in northern Barcelona for rooming more trains.

Bilbao needs a new station as it is expected to room many new services to France and the rest of Spain because of the new line which gonna improved a lot the current infrastructure.

Valencia needs to modify all its railway layout, from a terminus to a through station as the city is just in the middle of the Mediterranean Corridor. Quick services to Alicante and further south with a stop in Valencia are only possible without a terminus station.

The situation in León is kind of similar to Valencia: right now the city station is a terminus, and services from Madrid to Asturias are delayed because of the amount of time lost for getting the city center.

In a more general way, stations in Spain are underused as they are old and the infrastructure is not efficient for attracting a big amount of traffic. As the new lines are opened, and traffic increases, the old stations finally show they haven't been modified since they were built in the 19th century, so an upgrade would be necessary. Not only for the railway itself, but for linking them in a better way with their cities.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 03:12 PM   #2203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about:
- high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
- high-peed line Sevilla-Faro
- high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse
Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 03:17 PM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.
It is already planned and under construction, except the stretch from Castellón to Valencia, sort of saturated because of commuter trains services. Actually , the central part of the line (Vandellón-Castellón) was (re-)built at the same time than the HSL Madrid-Sevilla with similar standards, so, it is already existing a big part of the line from Valencia to Barcelona. The stretch from Tarragona to Barcelona and to France exists as well.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 03:31 PM   #2205
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...
You really have to do a case by case analysis for every station, but in general they can not handle any large increase in passenger flows, and they can't easily be rebuilt to accomndate that. You really need to rebuild stations entirely to allow for dubbling or trippling in crowd flows. Capacity wise, Bilbao and Valencia are both waaaaaaaaay to small for the new role they are supposed to take on when new HSR services are launched.

In the case of Valencia for example, you really have to look at a trippling of the number of passengers for that station once both Barcelona and Murcia are within 2 hours reach. The number of yearly trips (globaly speaking) between Barcelona, Castellon, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia (12-15 million) are even higher that between Barcelona, Zaragoza and Madrid (10-12 million), but today most o those trips are on other modes of transport. The mediterranean arch is the most heavily traveled in all of Spain but the railway infrastructure is in no way built to support a large modal shift to trains.

In other parts of Spain, there has never been any railway travel to speak of, Asturias and the Basque Country saw at most a few long distance trains per day and so the stations are not built to handle say 1000+ passengers crowding in the waiting areas. Bilbao could realistically speaking see a massive increase in both the number if trains and passenger flows. And it is not only the stations themself, but also the surrounding infrastructure, taxis, buses and private vehicles, how are they going to fit in?

When the Basque Y open, Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastian will effectively form one single metropolitan area, it will be perfectly feasible to live in one city and work in the other, that has never been the case before and so trainstations are not built to handle those huge increases in crowds that one can expect.

Last edited by gincan; October 19th, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #2206
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Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?
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Old October 19th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #2207
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?
I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?
It is around 300-400 km shorter via Bordeaux, that's right. It would be the natural way from Madrid and Portugal to Paris.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.
Well, as well, the HSL from Montpellier to Perpignan isn't clear at all. It will be built, but who knows when. And furthermore, the LGV Atlantique is not as saturated ad the LGV Sud-Est, which is as well an important advantage.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #2209
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The French often fear competition by creating a fast link. They are really slow on the other side to links things up as well. Seemingly to protect the role Marseille in the Mediterranean.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #2210
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The Spanish side of this line can be divided in two sections: Sevilla - Huelva and Huelva - Portuguese border.

Between Sevilla and Huelva there is a conventional electrified single-track railway line. It sees some commuter traffic in the Sevilla boundaries (only since two years ago), regional traffic between both cities and also long distance traffic (alvia) between Madrid and Huelva, using the HSL between Madrid and Sevilla. I don't think that building a new HSL is necessary, but there should be plans to upgrade it, as it is being done in the Sevilla - Cádiz line (double track and new layout in some stretches).
The Seville-Huelva line can be divided in two sections:

-between Seville and Carrion de los Céspedes the line has a difficult profile and sees commuter trains (right now they reach Benacazón, but it isn´t unlikely that in the future they´ll be extended as far as Carrión de los Céspedes or even La Palma del Condado). A whole new line should be built here, and the population of Huelva doesn´t justify it. It could justify a simple doubletracking of the current line, though.

-between Carrión de los Céspedes and Huelva, the line has a much easier profile, and a Cadiz-like upgrade is perfectly feasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Between Huelva and the Portuguese border the conventional line was closed in 1985. If reopened, it would be useful for commuter traffic between Lepe and Huelva. In addition, there could also be regional and even long distance services from Sevilla and Madrid, as the beaches in the area are very touristic. I think that just with reopening and electrification the line would be successful.
It´s a cycling path now. That is one line that shouldn´t have closed, they should have spent the money on upgrading it, instead of easily closing, it would have been worth it...

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
However, in order to cross the border and connect the Portuguese and the Spanish networks at that point, a bridge across the Guadiana river should be built, as in the past the connection between both lines was made by ferry. Sadly, I don't think there is much interest now to promote this connection, as improving and electrifying the three other existing connections (Vigo - Porto, Salamanca - Guarda and Badajoz - Évora) has more priority.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage.
I don´t think it´s true in each one of the cases you mention. Some upgrade would do, though.

Case by case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Madrid Chamartin,
It doesn´t need more tracks, if you think that once the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel will open, a number of trains won´t be radial Madrid-coast anymore, but diametral coast-Madrid-coast.

What it really needs is to reorganize the space in the passenger hall, now too cluttered and easily overcrowded. A new underground commuter train passenger hall at the interchange with the metro will be needed too. They are starting to think about it, but Spainball is have no monies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Madrid Atocha,
This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Barcelona Sagrera,
Spainball is have no monies.
They should get some and open it, at least in part, since the following station is saturated and about to reach capacity:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Barcelona Sants,
Now this is the most saturated station in Spain.
Two extra HSR platforms could be built, but only by transforming two commuter rail platforms into standard gauge, and thus, taking capacity away from the commuter rail. Oops.
A better use of Estació de França and opening the Sagrera main station should help, as well as some reforms to gain capacity in the commuter network.
Monies, gib monies, Ee-Yuo, plox!


Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Valencia Nord,
You have to count Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla too, here.
I don´t think this one will be saturated in the short term.
Right now it isn´t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Bilbao Abando,
I don´t think it will be saturated either, but there´s room for a big extension of the station, if need be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Gijon Jovellanos,
Right now, this station is closed (and Gijon-Cercanías too), replaced by the supposed-to-be provisory Gijon-Sanz Crespo. There is a project to completely rebuild Gijon-Cercanías as the main Gijon station, including a new underground commuter tunnel for metric gauge, but it´s halted (while works were relatively advanced) since Spainball is have no monies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Alicante terminal,
Agreed. The project´s there, but not the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Murcia del Carmen,
Agreed. Here... ...here they´re don´t know what to do, since there´s no money, and in this particular case a tunnel under the city would be the best option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Granada railway station,
There´s room enough, but no money.
They could do with the existing station anyway, which is very far from saturated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Tarragona-Reus railway station,
There´s no such thing as a Tarragona-Reus station.

If you talk about Camp de Tarragona station, that one´s far from saturated, but it would do with a reopening of the classic line Reus-Camp de Tarragona-Roda de Barà, which was closed in 1990, as that would greatly improve the connectivity in the area.

If you talk about something else, it won´t happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Vitoria-Gasteiz railway station,
Agreed, but not yet.
The current station still has some space left for more platforms (about two or three, no more).
This case would be a target though, since it could become saturated.
A reshaping of the passenger hall will be needed, I suppose.
Vitoria is the capital of the Basque Country (and not Bilbao, as many people believe), and it´s the fastest-growing Spanish city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Valladolid railway station,
Not saturated. HSR platforms are heavily used, but that has a very easy solution: to build more HSR platforms by transforming Iberian gauge platforms. There´s loads of space there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Leon railway station,
Not saturated, but the provisory station should really be replaced by a definitive one. They wanted to put it underground, but there´s no money.
Putting it in a trench (that could be covered in places) would probably be the best idea, and the Ministry and local authorities are starting to look like that, it seems. But that costs money anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Oviedo Norte etc.
Not saturated at all. All trains are through trains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
These are not cheap renovations we're talking about, but each of these stations will cost in the 100 to 1000 million euros range. In fact, Both Madrid Chamartin and Barcelona Sagrera will utimately cost several billions of euros, and it would not surprise me if also Valencia Nord ends up costing in excess of a billion euros.
They will, and the most expensive will be Valencia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
They will be there to maintain as well. And since so many HSR lines are not making money to pay off the initial investment at all this is a serious issue.
The AVE makes more money than what the press say. And when Spain will start getting out of the crisis, ridership will increase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buho View Post
And Vigo-Porto...
Oh la là, no!

First, they should upgrade the classic line. Second, electrify. Third, improve train service and frequency. Then, wait and see. After all, this is a Portuguese thing, most of all, we´d only have to build a short section in any case. And obviously, it should be a both-sides project, to build only the Spanish side would be useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Madrid-Atocha and Barcelona-Sants are saturated.
Not Madrid-Atocha. Barcelona-Sants yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
In a more general way, stations in Spain are underused as they are old and the infrastructure is not efficient for attracting a big amount of traffic. As the new lines are opened, and traffic increases, the old stations finally show they haven't been modified since they were built in the 19th century, so an upgrade would be necessary. Not only for the railway itself, but for linking them in a better way with their cities.
I don´t agree in all of the cases. It´s a case-by-case thing. Every station is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.
By now, there´s a new line being built, to link the current line between Vandellos and Camp de Tarragona HSR station, including a connection for freight and regional rail at Vilaseca. I wouldn´t call it a full HSL though, since it shares traffic and paths with freight and commuter railway.
In the long term (decades), a HSL might be needed, but not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
It is already planned and under construction, except the stretch from Castellón to Valencia, sort of saturated because of commuter trains services.
It´s not under construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
You really have to do a case by case analysis for every station, but in general they can not handle any large increase in passenger flows, and they can't easily be rebuilt to accomndate that. You really need to rebuild stations entirely to allow for dubbling or trippling in crowd flows. Capacity wise, Bilbao and Valencia are both waaaaaaaaay to small for the new role they are supposed to take on when new HSR services are launched.

In the case of Valencia for example, you really have to look at a trippling of the number of passengers for that station once both Barcelona and Murcia are within 2 hours reach. The number of yearly trips (globaly speaking) between Barcelona, Castellon, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia (12-15 million) are even higher that between Barcelona, Zaragoza and Madrid (10-12 million), but today most o those trips are on other modes of transport. The mediterranean arch is the most heavily traveled in all of Spain but the railway infrastructure is in no way built to support a large modal shift to trains.
The project´s there, but not the money. And this is going to be very expensive. I agree overall with your comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
In other parts of Spain, there has never been any railway travel to speak of,
You exaggerate you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Asturias and the Basque Country saw at most a few long distance trains per day and so the stations are not built to handle say 1000+ passengers crowding in the waiting areas.
Gijon I agree (though it´s under construction, but delayed for lack of money).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Bilbao could realistically speaking see a massive increase in both the number if trains and passenger flows. And it is not only the stations themself, but also the surrounding infrastructure, taxis, buses and private vehicles, how are they going to fit in?
They will, don´t worry about this case. Bilbao-Abando station has loads of room, enough to double the size of the station. And the Ministry knows it.

Vitoria is a much more worrying case, but not in the short term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
When the Basque Y open, Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastian will effectively form one single metropolitan area, it will be perfectly feasible to live in one city and work in the other,
That already happens (motorway ), and even between the Spanish and French sides of the Basque Country. There are people who live even in the Landes (outside the Basque Country in the direction of Dax and Bordeaux) and work at San Sebastian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
that has never been the case before and so train stations are not built to handle those huge increases in crowds that one can expect.
It already is the case.

Like I´ve just said, Bilbao doesn´t really worry me.
San Sebastian doesn´t worry me either, since the station is planned outside the city center, and linked to the current one through the commuter trains.
Vitoria does worry me in the long term.

And Pamplona does worry me too, just like Vitoria. Pamplona is another of the fastest-growing Spanish cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?
Yes, but not next week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.
It is... or so they say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
It is around 300-400 km shorter via Bordeaux, that's right. It would be the natural way from Madrid and Portugal to Paris.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Well, as well, the HSL from Montpellier to Perpignan isn't clear at all. It will be built, but who knows when. And furthermore, the LGV Atlantique is not as saturated ad the LGV Sud-Est, which is as well an important advantage.
Not necessarily if you improve capacity between Paris and Lyon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
The French often fear competition by creating a fast link. They are really slow on the other side to links things up as well. Seemingly to protect the role Marseille in the Mediterranean.
And this has nothing to do with Spanish HSR.
Besides, Marseille will also benefit from a TGV/AVE to Barcelona and maybe Madrid too.
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Last edited by 437.001; October 19th, 2013 at 09:19 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #2211
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This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.


Not Madrid-Atocha. Barcelona-Sants yes.
The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough.

Quote:
By now, there´s a new line to link the current line between Vandellos and Camp de Tarragona HSR station, including a Vilaseca connection for freight and regional rail. I wouldn ´t call it a full HSL though, since it shares traffic and paths with freight and commuter railway.
In the long term, a HSL might be needed, but not yet.

It´s not under construction.
The situation along the Mediterranean Corridor is complicated. Full High Speed services actually can not be offered as there are shared tracks with freight trains. But it is not as simple as saying not under construction. Most of the line between Barcelona and Valencia is already built, but shared by high speed trains, conventional trains and freight trains between Tarragona and Valencia.


Quote:
Not necessarily if you improve capacity between Paris and Lyon.
... yes... anyway it is tricky and dense that part of the French network
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Old October 19th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough.
I don´t think so.

Atocha has already got extra capacity with the bretelle points and the new arrivals hall.

Besides, even if the to-be-built underground through platforms won´t be ready in a number of years because of lack of funds, some trains will be diverted to Chamartín right from the start of the opening of the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel, and that will leave more room at Atocha, to both the commuter and HSR platforms.

Quote:
The situation along the Mediterranean Corridor is complicated. Full High Speed services actually can not be offered as there are shared tracks with freight trains. But it is not as simple as saying not under construction. Most of the line between Barcelona and Valencia is already built, but shared by high speed trains, conventional trains and freight trains between Tarragona and Valencia.
I was actually speaking (well, typing... ) about the Valencia-Castellon section.
Sorry, I didn´t elaborate.

Quote:
... yes... anyway it is tricky and dense that part of the French network
Yes, but this is off-topic.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #2213
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I don´t think so.

Atocha has already got extra capacity with the bretelle points and the new arrivals hall.

Besides, even if the to-be-built underground through platforms won´t be ready in a number of years because of lack of funds, some trains will be diverted to Chamartín right from the start of the opening of the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel, and that will leave more room at Atocha, to both the commuter and HSR platforms.
Sure. I agree with you.

Anyway Barcelona-Sants is far worse than Atocha. So two extra UIC gauge tracks for the station and removing two Iberian gauge won't affect the already saturated commuter network around Sants?

BTW I know it is slightly off topic. :-D
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Old October 19th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #2214
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The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough.

15 tracks should allow for 60 departures an hour....
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Old October 19th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #2215
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Anyway Barcelona-Sants is far worse than Atocha.
Indeed. That station was born smaller.
If ever (say, for Easter holidays) a sold out double TGV Duplex enters Sants station terminating there, it will saturate the passenger hall (that´s 1000 people in one go). One single bleeding sold out double TGV Duplex can make that happen. And that´s worrying.

Quote:
So two extra UIC gauge tracks for the station and removing two Iberian gauge won't affect the already saturated commuter network around Sants?
It will, yes. Not a lot, but in degraded situation, it certainly will.

Anyway, eight tracks for the current more than 80 trains is not a lot, either, and if you add to the bill all the Valencia and Murcia trains, and all of the France/Switzerland trains, you do have a problem even with eight tracks.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
15 tracks should allow for 60 departures an hour....
They do, Atocha isn´t really saturated these days.
Only at the peak hours it might get very busy, but never like the Gare de Lyon.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:32 PM   #2216
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Pajares base tunnels (related to the Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon HSL).

Some photos of the northern portal of the main tunnel.
The second one shows the area during the construction works.
The third photo shows the same area after it was completed.

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Pics from the book 'ASTURIAS DESDE EL AIRE, UNA VENTANA AL PARAISO (2008)', by the photographer Nardo Villaboy.



The photo just above and the one just below show the same area:

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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:35 PM   #2217
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Indeed. That station was born smaller.
If ever (say, for Easter holidays) a sold out double TGV Duplex enters Sants station terminating there, it will saturate the passenger hall (that´s 1000 people in one go). One single bleeding sold out double TGV Duplex can make that happen. And that´s worrying.



It will, yes. Not a lot, but in degraded situation, it certainly will.

Anyway, eight tracks for the current more than 80 trains is not a lot, either, and if you add to the bill all the Valencia and Murcia trains, and all of the France/Switzerland trains, you do have a problem even with eight tracks.



They do, Atocha isn´t really saturated these days.
Only at the peak hours it might get very busy, but never like the Gare de Lyon.

There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms. I think in Atocha it is relatively well solved, but it is not the case in Sants, which is not a station ready for managing that amount of people.

But I have the impression that dealing with the amount of people Gare de Lyon rooms at peak hours would provoke even a chaos in Atocha. Sants, simply, couldn't room that amount of people.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #2218
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There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms.
To an extent. If you mean the scanners, yes.
But I´ve had a ticket control to get to my Corail Téoz at Paris-Gare de Lyon.

Quote:
I think in Atocha it is relatively well solved, but it is not the case in Sants, which is not a station ready for managing that amount of people.
Spot on. At Atocha there´s a whole hall designed for that, while at Sants... there´s... well, the passenger hall.

Quote:
But I have the impression that dealing with the amount of people Gare de Lyon rooms at peak hours would provoke even a chaos in Atocha.
Atocha is not really that far from Gare de Lyon as one could imagine.
It really is a big station.

Quote:
Sants, simply, couldn't room that amount of people.
Sants can´t even room a fart.

There´s only one escalator to descend from the passenger hall into each platform, and only one escalator to climb from each platform into the passenger hall.
How come a station like Sants cannot be saturated? Like this, it´s imposible not to get saturated.

Even a shitty station like Montpellier-Saint Roch is better designed than Barcelona-Sants.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #2219
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Sants can´t even room a fart.

There´s only one escalator to descend from the passenger hall into each platform, and only one escalator to climb from each platform into the passenger hall.
How come a station like Sants cannot be saturated? Like this, it´s imposible not to get saturated.

Even a shitty station like Montpellier-Saint Roch is better designed than Barcelona-Sants.


The problem in Sants is mostly about passengers areas than tracks capacity. The only real solution for that is rebuilding and redisigning the whole overground complex which is an extremely big and expensive operation, and impossible to do without a second big station in Barcelona like Sagrera.
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Old October 19th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #2220
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The problem in Sants is mostly about passengers areas than tracks capacity.
Well, track capacity is also an issue. The main one, in fact.

Quote:
The only real solution for that is rebuilding and redisigning the whole overground complex which is an extremely big and expensive operation, and impossible to do without a second big station in Barcelona like Sagrera.
I don´t think so.
Sagrera will take away many passengers from Sants.

What Sants needs is a massive upgrade of the passenger hall.
It´s not an easy thing to do without some disruptions, but I consider it feasible.

That said, an exit from the crisis, a serious increase in HSR, regional rail and commuter rail passenger numbers, and Sants might find itself with a very serious problem of saturation, and that, even with Sagrera open.

A solution is to reinforce the role of Estació de França, now underused, and also (and in particular) to open El Prat de Llobregat HSR as a full station.
Opening the Sant Andreu Comtal HSR facilities would do a lot of good to Sants, too.

That would drain the passengers (and high speed trains) better through the city.
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