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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:09 AM   #2221
arctic_carlos
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There was a plan to make Sants hall bigger, but it was shelved once the HSL was opened. I think the idea was to double the size of the hall. If Sagrera does not open soon, perhaps a good idea would be to think again of upgrading Sants.

About tracks, once the link between the HSL to Madrid and the kine to Valencia is opened, there won't be the need of having 8 Iberian gauge tracks, as all Long Distance services will use standard gauge. With 6 tracks it will be enough (2 for Plaça Catalunya tunnel and 4 for Passeig de Gràcia tunnel). Therefore 2 tracks could be switched to standard gauge without causing much trouble to the Iberian gauge part of the station.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 03:04 AM   #2222
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Well, track capacity is also an issue. The main one, in fact.

I don´t think so.
Sagrera will take away many passengers from Sants.

What Sants needs is a massive upgrade of the passenger hall.
It´s not an easy thing to do without some disruptions, but I consider it feasible.

That said, an exit from the crisis, a serious increase in HSR, regional rail and commuter rail passenger numbers, and Sants might find itself with a very serious problem of saturation, and that, even with Sagrera open.

A solution is to reinforce the role of Estació de França, now underused, and also (and in particular) to open El Prat de Llobregat HSR as a full station.
Opening the Sant Andreu Comtal HSR facilities would do a lot of good to Sants, too.

That would drain the passengers (and high speed trains) better through the city.
With the current number of tracks in the station, even if the are not sufficient, if you increase the number of services the problem is going to be in the halls as you say. That's why I see the halls issue as more critical.

Anyway, opening new stations in the Barcelona area would help, but it is not the solution for Sants... The thing of the double-decked halls as artic_carlos says could be interesting, but as far as it don't include additional ramps to the platforms I don't know if it can be a real solution.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 03:14 AM   #2223
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Basque 'Y' HSL.

River Deba viaduct, near Bergara.

Picture taken in August.

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Old October 20th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #2224
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There was a plan to make Sants hall bigger, but it was shelved once the HSL was opened. I think the idea was to double the size of the hall. If Sagrera does not open soon, perhaps a good idea would be to think again of upgrading Sants.
Even if it does, it would be a good idea to do it.

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About tracks, once the link between the HSL to Madrid and the kine to Valencia is opened, there won't be the need of having 8 Iberian gauge tracks, as all Long Distance services will use standard gauge. With 6 tracks it will be enough (2 for Plaça Catalunya tunnel and 4 for Passeig de Gràcia tunnel). Therefore 2 tracks could be switched to standard gauge without causing much trouble to the Iberian gauge part of the station.
R11. Unless you take them to Estació de França (by disrupting R1 trains) or to the Airport (in which case a massive upgrade of the Airport station would be needed), there´s the need of at least two tracks. Bellvitge and El Prat stations won´t be used as train parkings forever.

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With the current number of tracks in the station, even if the are not sufficient, if you increase the number of services the problem is going to be in the halls as you say. That's why I see the halls issue as more critical.
Both are important, but I´d rather prefer the hall overcrowded tan not having any more room for trains.

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Anyway, opening new stations in the Barcelona area would help, but it is not the solution for Sants...
Oh, that could do for a while, believe me. But not forever.

If you open El Prat HSL, a number of people would use it, since it´s the one to connect to the airport (and to metro L9, that will take you to the Fair and Congress hall in just 4 stops.), and to the south of suburban Barcelona.

That would mean less passengers boarding/alighting at Sants.

The same goes for Sagrera. Open it, and a number of passengers will board/alight at Sagrera. Less central, but better connected to the north of suburban Barcelona.

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The thing of the double-decked halls as artic_carlos says could be interesting, but as far as it don't include additional ramps to the platforms I don't know if it can be a real solution.
Forget about ramps here, only escalators and lifts can have space enough at Sants.

As for two-storey halls (which arctic_carlos didn´t talk about, as far as I know), it´s a good idea... if you take all the shops to the first floor and leave the ground for the passenger space.
Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 03:34 AM   #2225
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Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor.
But is it possible to do it any other way?
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Old October 20th, 2013, 04:44 AM   #2226
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But is it possible to do it any other way?
Tomorrow.

Zzzzzz.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #2227
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Sorry, it took me longer than expected (had to go out buy stuff, then do some house things)...



It´s only between trains and airplanes.

If we took all the modes (trains, airplanes, bus, private car), then trains+airplanes make less than 60% put together.
Private vehicles make around 1/3, and bus somewhere between 5% and 10%.

Counting all modes, train would be only around 35%.
Thanks for this explanation!

But i think for the market share, we can just stick to HSL vs. Airplane, because it's same market (~ 3 hours of travel from door to door)

Buses and private cars need more than 7h30 hours to make this journey, we can consider them as a different market, which doesn't target the same travelers.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 02:19 PM   #2228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
R11. Unless you take them to Estació de França (by disrupting R1 trains) or to the Airport (in which case a massive upgrade of the Airport station would be needed), there´s the need of at least two tracks. Bellvitge and El Prat stations won´t be used as train parkings forever.
With 6 tracks Sants cannot be used as a terminus station for Iberian gauge services anymore, so a solution must be found for those services coming from the north, which now run empty until Bellvitge or El Prat stations. The best idea would be, as you say, to upgrade the Airport station. However, it would be wiser to wait until the new T1 station is built than upgrading the current T2 station, as the latter will be dismantled sooner or later. Meanwhile, El Prat and Bellvitge can still be used to store empty trains.

Moreover, the current single track spur to the Airport has not enough capacity to bring there a lot of trains, and it would not make a lot of sense to double track it when it is going to be closed as soon as the new line to the T1 opens. Regarding the future T1 station, I hope it has more than two tracks, but I guess that even with just two the situation will improve if you compare it with the current T2 station.


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As for two-storey halls (which arctic_carlos didn´t talk about, as far as I know), it´s a good idea... if you take all the shops to the first floor and leave the ground for the passenger space.
Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor.
I didn't talk about a two-level hall, but it could maybe be a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, the original plan was to extend the current hall to all directions, as it is technically possible because the squares located at both sides of the station are huge. If I'm not mistaken, new exits from the platforms to the street (at the Llobregat end of all of them) were already built when the platforms were renovated before the arrival of the HSL to Sants. Now they act as emergency exits, but they could be converted into new entrances from the expanded hall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 06:39 PM   #2229
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It doesn´t need more tracks, if you think that once the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel will open, a number of trains won´t be radial Madrid-coast anymore, but diametral coast-Madrid-coast.

What it really needs is to reorganize the space in the passenger hall, now too cluttered and easily overcrowded. A new underground commuter train passenger hall at the interchange with the metro will be needed too. They are starting to think about it, but Spainball is have no monies.
On the trackside Chamartín has overcapacity, it is not a problem. However, the passenger terminal is a joke, it works now but in the future when there will be 30-40 400 meter long HSR trains per hour, even a total renovation of the existing building including your commuter train station would be insufficent.

A completely new passenger terminal has to be built, and that will cost billions.

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This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.
The new Atocha extension will be Über expensive since they have to build under existing infrastructure, and it has to be built, there is no way around it.


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Now this is the most saturated station in Spain.
Two extra HSR platforms could be built, but only by transforming two commuter rail platforms into standard gauge, and thus, taking capacity away from the commuter rail. Oops.
A better use of Estació de França and opening the Sagrera main station should help, as well as some reforms to gain capacity in the commuter network.
Not only is Sants overcrowded, but there in no space left in the terminal to expand the HSR passenger waiting hall. Already it is collapsed and with trains to/from France and beyond and even more passengers from Murcia/Alicante/Valencia the only option left is a massive expansion of the existing building.

Sagrera will help a little but the more convinient location of Sants means that it will probably always be the prefered station for business travelers.

Also, Estació de França will be closed, ADIF doesn't want to pay for the maintenance, it is the most maintenance heavy railway building in Spain. It cost a fortune just to keep it open, Renfe wanted to close it already 25 years ago because of the cost.

Anyway, even when all the existing railway porjects are finished, there will be another 15-20 years worth of railway station building, that will cost if not as much as new HSR corridors, it will still be a significant part of the next 30 years of infrastructure budgets.
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Old October 20th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #2230
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There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms.
There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....
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Old October 20th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #2231
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There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....
You mean...? To make those controls disappear?
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Old October 20th, 2013, 11:57 PM   #2232
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Yes, because they are useless...

(except for X-ray scanner builders)
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:03 AM   #2233
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I do strongly, strongly agree
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:06 AM   #2234
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Yes, because they are useless...

(except for X-ray scanner builders)
Sure.

Well, you know, it is about selling appearance of security like in airports (sic). Do you think there is any difference if comparing with planes?
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:08 AM   #2235
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It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples. Also hijacking a train won't do you much good...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:10 AM   #2236
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It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples. Also hijacking a train won't do you much good...
Well, it is hard to calculate how bad is a bomb explosion in a train running at 300 km/h... Not worse and more critical than in a plane in the air for sure, but highly destructive as well.

Planes are more critical than trains? For sure... I don't doubt it.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:41 AM   #2237
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Once an airplane is flying terrorist outside it cannot do nothing to ground it, while it is quite easy to put some bombs around kilomoetres of HSLs, not to mention on commuter trains...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:47 AM   #2238
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Once an airplane is flying terrorist outside it cannot do nothing to ground it, while it is quite easy to put some bombs around kilomoetres of HSLs, not to mention on commuter trains...
As well, as well... Just take a look to old news about where the Civil Guards moved after any terrorist attack in Spain: one of the most watched points were the HSLs...

I mean, those controls are obviously absurd as far as you are not controlling other mass transit systems on rail as well critical, as our experience shows.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:56 AM   #2239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrys View Post
Thanks for this explanation!
You are welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrys View Post
But i think for the market share, we can just stick to HSL vs. Airplane, because it's same market (~ 3 hours of travel from door to door)

Buses and private cars need more than 7h30 hours to make this journey, we can consider them as a different market, which doesn't target the same travelers.
Well, I think that counts too, there´s also a number of passengers who switched from car and bus to train. Perhaps the case of Madrid-Barcelona is not the most evident, since plane played (and still does) a very important role, but in other routes (like Madrid-Zaragoza, or Lleida-Madrid, and in particular other HSLs like Madrid-Seville, Madrid-Alicante and Madrid-Valencia, the main rival was/is the car and the buses).

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
With 6 tracks Sants cannot be used as a terminus station for Iberian gauge services anymore, so a solution must be found for those services coming from the north, which now run empty until Bellvitge or El Prat stations. The best idea would be, as you say, to upgrade the Airport station. However, it would be wiser to wait until the new T1 station is built than upgrading the current T2 station, as the latter will be dismantled sooner or later. Meanwhile, El Prat and Bellvitge can still be used to store empty trains.

Moreover, the current single track spur to the Airport has not enough capacity to bring there a lot of trains, and it would not make a lot of sense to double track it when it is going to be closed as soon as the new line to the T1 opens. Regarding the future T1 station, I hope it has more than two tracks, but I guess that even with just two the situation will improve if you compare it with the current T2 station.
I honestly don´t know wether the infamous Airport T1 station will be built or not. I don´t think it is really that necessary, as there already is an Airport T1 station, and metro L9 is about to reach both terminals...

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I didn't talk about a two-level hall, but it could maybe be a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, the original plan was to extend the current hall to all directions, as it is technically possible because the squares located at both sides of the station are huge. If I'm not mistaken, new exits from the platforms to the street (at the Llobregat end of all of them) were already built when the platforms were renovated before the arrival of the HSL to Sants. Now they act as emergency exits, but they could be converted into new entrances from the expanded hall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That will be expensive, and will reduce the size of Joan Peiró square. And I´m not so sure about the intentions of the city council.

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On the trackside Chamartín has overcapacity, it is not a problem. However, the passenger terminal is a joke, it works now but in the future when there will be 30-40 400 meter long HSR trains per hour, even a total renovation of the existing building including your commuter train station would be insufficent.

A completely new passenger terminal has to be built, and that will cost billions.
So true. Anyway, there is still some room for reorganizing the space at Chamartín, right now there´s a first floor that they don´t use (as far as know), so the restaurants/bars/cafés/shops, at least part of them, could be moved upstairs.
Otherwise, the passenger hall will be a chaos. That´s a fact.

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The new Atocha extension will be Über expensive since they have to build under existing infrastructure, and it has to be built, there is no way around it.
Actually, through trains will skip Atocha for some time, till the extension you´re talking about gets built. That will only bring more trouble into Chamartín, but I´m afraid it´s the only possibility for some time, till some money is available to build the Atocha extension...

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Not only is Sants overcrowded, but there in no space left in the terminal to expand the HSR passenger waiting hall. Already it is collapsed and with trains to/from France and beyond and even more passengers from Murcia/Alicante/Valencia the only option left is a massive expansion of the existing building.
Indeed.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Sagrera will help a little but the more convinient location of Sants means that it will probably always be the prefered station for business travelers.
It won´t be that much of a difference. Sagrera will be a better option for those going to the lower part of Diagonal (which is also developing as a business area). IF ONLY L4 La Pau-Sagrera got built (well, finished ), that would be quite handy.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Also, Estació de França will be closed, ADIF doesn't want to pay for the maintenance, it is the most maintenance heavy railway building in Spain. It cost a fortune just to keep it open, Renfe wanted to close it already 25 years ago because of the cost.
That I know, it´s the city who wants it closed, not Renfe! Renfe really still needs it. As for Adif, I think they don´t really care about the maintenance as a big issue, it´s not the only station with a big train shed (Valencia-Nord, Corunna-San Cristóbal, San Sebastian, Bilbao-Abando, Medina del Campo, Madrid-Príncipe Pío, Jerez, Puente Genil, Alicante, Valladolid... there are many of them, albeit Estació de França is the biggest and anyway, other stations abroad, say Paris-Gare de Lyon or Leipzig, to name but two, are even bigger and there´s no way they´re going to be closed).

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Anyway, even when all the existing railway porjects are finished, there will be another 15-20 years worth of railway station building, that will cost if not as much as new HSR corridors, it will still be a significant part of the next 30 years of infrastructure budgets.
Maybe, we´ll see.

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There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....


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It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples.
Al-Qaeda proves that wrong. Two times (Madrid, London).

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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Well, it is hard to calculate how bad is a bomb explosion in a train running at 300 km/h...
Certainly worse than a bomb inside a commuter train, and that was bad enough.

But let´s not talk about this, please.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:11 AM   #2240
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As well, as well... Just take a look to old news about where the Civil Guards moved after any terrorist attack in Spain: one of the most watched points were the HSLs...

I mean, those controls are obviously absurd as far as you are not controlling other mass transit systems on rail as well critical, as our experience shows.
And even that wouldn't help, because you can always bomb the
queue to such security control, as Moscow bombing showed.
The only thing why planes are still controlled - they are expensive and can be 'drived' in something cruical with a huge explosion.
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