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Old October 28th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #2261
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Ahem.
Allow me to be optimistic...

But if I am wrong what's Almansa, Villena, Utiel-Requena, Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera or Sanabria stations?

Far better if considering the only "minor" station on the first high speed line: Puertollano.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 09:29 PM   #2262
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Spain is bigger than Germany, but has almost half the population of Germany, the population density is much lower, and the distribution of the population is totally different.
Population densities:
Germany - 233 per square km
France - 111 per square km (and the inventor of TGV)
Spain - 88 per square km
Sweden - 20 per square km (and the new built HSR Botniabanan is in the sparsely settled north)
Finland - 16 per square km (and they also have broad gauge).
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Old October 28th, 2013, 09:37 PM   #2263
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Well, in case of Finland population is distributed rather unevenly, so there is high density along the coast, and hardly anyone at the polar circle... In France, Paris and Ille-de-France (hope I get that right, no offence) also biases general density to some extent.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #2264
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Population densities:
Germany - 233 per square km
France - 111 per square km (and the inventor of TGV)
Spain - 88 per square km
Sweden - 20 per square km (and the new built HSR Botniabanan is in the sparsely settled north)
Finland - 16 per square km (and they also have broad gauge).
It is not only a low population density in the case of Spain. But it is really irregular its distribution. The Mediterranean corridor from France to Murcia, through Catalonia and the Valencian Community has high population densities (over 200 hab/km2), and the Northern coast corridor, from the Basque Country to Asturias as well is really high (over 100 hab/km2 in Asturias, but over 300 habi/km2)

Then, you have in the center of Spain Madrid, kind of isolated from the most populated areas of Spain on the coast, because most of inner Spain (Castille, Extremadura and Aragon (except Ebro valley and Zaragoza area) had really low densities.

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Old October 29th, 2013, 12:50 AM   #2265
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A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.

Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.

I think these cities are the only two province capitals that have lost Long Distance services as a result if the opening of HSL. All other new lines follow the same routes of conventional lines, at least between province capitals. However, in some cases, as in Tarragona, Guadalajara or Cuenca, stations have been built out of the cities, although services offered have improved a lot in these new stations.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #2266
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A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.

Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.

I think these cities are the only two province capitals that have lost Long Distance services as a result if the opening of HSL. All other new lines follow the same routes of conventional lines, at least between province capitals. However, in some cases, as in Tarragona, Guadalajara or Cuenca, stations have been built out of the cities, although services offered have improved a lot in these new stations.
Ah, that's true. You're right. However, while Avila has lost the long distance services, Segovia has got them (before Segovia was the terminus of the line and it had only regional/commuter services with Madrid).
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Old October 29th, 2013, 01:21 AM   #2267
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HeyHo,

I'm always impressed about the High Speed transportation in Spain.

While opening a HSL in Germany there is always the discussion about smaller citys next to the HSL that will loose their long-distance traffic after the high-speed lines got open, because that new line doesn't pass through these cities anylonger.

For example: Jena will get disconnected from ICE trains in 2017, Koblenz and Bonn lost many of their international service in 2001. Magdeburg lost it's ICE connection to Berlin in the 90s... etc. etc.

How is it in Spain? Are there any remarkable cities that lost (or will loose in the future) important train connections because the AVE goes a different route and doesn't stop anywhere nearby?
The connections got now worse than they used to be before opening the HSL?

Thanks for information

Phillip

Hi Phillip

There are some towns that are going to lose (or already have lost) several services due to HSL. Towns where classic lines crossed by their stations and maybe not all of them but at least some trains stopped.

It could be improved with a correct shuttle service between regional trains and HS trains and it is affordable.

In the last years we have seen several details to be improved... but I would say that there is too much to do in that way as you can see.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Allow me to be optimistic...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
But if I am wrong what's Almansa, Villena, Utiel-Requena, Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera or Sanabria stations?
These are not "more and more planned stations". Excepting the case of Almansa and Sanabria stations, all of them are open.
Almansa HSR station finally didn´t open and its construction never really started.
And Sanabria station... well, that is a case of a station I wouldn´t build. The only remarkable nearby population is Bragança, and that´s in Portugal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Far better if considering the only "minor" station on the first high speed line: Puertollano.
Puertollano is a city. Not a big city, nor the head of a province, but a city anyway.

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A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.
That is true. It´s maybe the only case.
Segovia (which didn´t have any long-distance service) took over instead of Avila (which has lost them).

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.
In this particular case, remember the flyover and by-pass under construction at La Encina. Valencia-Xativa-Albacete-Cuenca-Madrid HS trains will be possible again in a few years. With the addition of Cuenca instead of Alcázar de San Juan (that´s another of the towns that have lost many services, though Alcázar´s not as bad as Avila, and still retains some).
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Old October 29th, 2013, 10:47 AM   #2269
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Valladolid-Palencia-Leon-Asturias HSL.
Pajares base tunnels.

Section Campomanes-Sotiello-Pajares tunnels.
Pictures from Sunday.



Teso viaducts:

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The troublesome Campomanes trench, prone to landslides:

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Teso tunnels:

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San Bras viaduct, and Sotiello (south portals), and Jomezana tunnels (North portals):

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View from Los Pontones. Water keeps on flowing from the great Pajares tunnels:

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Water flowing from the Pajares tunnels, into river Huerna:

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Old October 29th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #2270
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I think population densities are meaningful but more meaningful is to also look at a map at the distribution of the people over a country.

A country with a low density of population overall has little need for a HSL. Spain is not densely populated but does have a large concentration of people in small urban areas (e.g. along the Mediterranean and in the center of the country (Madrid) or along the Atlantic coast. A HSL makes sense in such a situation.

My apologies for the large map.

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Old October 29th, 2013, 06:15 PM   #2271
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Another forumer just posted the same map in a better scale.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #2272
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And Sanabria station... well, that is a case of a station I wouldn´t build. The only remarkable nearby population is Bragança, and that´s in Portugal.
Am I right that the "full stop" HS train from Madrid to Santiago would then have the following stops: Segovia, Medina del Campo, Zamora, Sanabria and Ourense.

You are right that Sanabria station doesn't make all that much sense from the economic point of view, but perhaps there is something interesting nearby why visitors from Madrid or abroad would like to stop there?

I thought for a moment that perhaps Portuguese would like to use, but after "consulting" with Google that doesn't seem to make sense. From Braganca it's just as good to drive to Zamora and take a train to Madrid from there.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #2273
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Am I right that the "full stop" HS train from Madrid to Santiago would then have the following stops: Segovia, Medina del Campo, Zamora, Sanabria and Ourense.
No, there´s also A Gudiña station between Sanabria and Ourense, you´re missing that one.
But I´m not all that sure about Sanabria station opening.
As for A Gudiña station... dunno, doesn´t make much sense to me either, but that area is a bit more populated.

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You are right that Sanabria station doesn't make all that much sense from the economic point of view, but perhaps there is something interesting nearby why visitors from Madrid or abroad would like to stop there?
Well, Puebla de Sanabria and its surroundings are an area of outstanding natural beauty, that´s true (a bit like the Yorkshire Dales in Britain, so to speak).
But you know, you don´t just open a station just for high-season tourists, do you?
The Sanabria region has a very low population density.

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I thought for a moment that perhaps Portuguese would like to use, but after "consulting" with Google that doesn't seem to make sense. From Braganca it's just as good to drive to Zamora and take a train to Madrid from there.
Correct.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #2274
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Well, Puebla de Sanabria and its surroundings are an area of outstanding natural beauty, that´s true (a bit like the Yorkshire Dales in Britain, so to speak).
But you know, you don´t just open a station just for high-season tourists, do you?
The Sanabria region has a very low population density.
Generally not, but then again it depends how much it costs to do so. If there is no deviation from the route the train would be taking anyway and the structure itself is basic with minimal staffing then it could be ok to take a chance on it. It could even pay off if you can go hiking straight from the station or have reliable local buses which take you to interesting nearby places. If you organise it well it could become a popular day trip from Madrid (ca 2h I assume). There are trains in Switzerland which are full in summer mostly with hikers and in winter mostly with skiers.

More problematic are stations which are in the middle of agricultural areas and with little population nearby.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 11:18 PM   #2275
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Generally not, but then again it depends how much it costs to do so. If there is no deviation from the route the train would be taking anyway and the structure itself is basic with minimal staffing then it could be ok to take a chance on it. It could even pay off if you can go hiking straight from the station or have reliable local buses which take you to interesting nearby places. If you organise it well it could become a popular day trip from Madrid (ca 2h I assume). There are trains in Switzerland which are full in summer mostly with hikers and in winter mostly with skiers.

More problematic are stations which are in the middle of agricultural areas and with little population nearby.
... ... ...well, in that sense, yes, the area would benefit from tourists, yes, they´d have a much easier access.
But you know, there´s no ski resort in the surroundings, and the low season there is really low (deep, I´d say).
It really is a place to lose yourself.

We haven´t seen the Sanabria station project yet (it shouldn´t take very long until the plan surfaces, if it must), but in any case, it would be simple.
Otherwise, there would be rantings in many places of Spain, you don´t want a HSR-port of a station that cost millions.

And yes, it is a popular trip from Madrid and other areas. We´ll see, though.
Now the priority is Zamora. After that is done, then it comes Sanabria.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 12:01 AM   #2276
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We'll see soon enough I guess... I'd only like to add that Renfe alone can not make it work for a place like this, it would need a good coordination from local authorities, bus companies, local businesses etc. It will be a failure if people discover that the only reliable way to the nearby attractions is by car... There wouldn't be a need for many trains to stop there, but one or two a day wouldn't work either.

By the way do you know if there will be any connections with the classical line between Zamora and Ourense? I was just wondering if it will be possible to open the rest of the line in piecemeal or it will have to be in one go.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:02 AM   #2277
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We'll see soon enough I guess... I'd only like to add that Renfe alone can not make it work for a place like this, it would need a good coordination from local authorities, bus companies, local businesses etc. It will be a failure if people discover that the only reliable way to the nearby attractions is by car... There wouldn't be a need for many trains to stop there, but one or two a day wouldn't work either.
I´m less optimistic about it than you.

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By the way do you know if there will be any connections with the classical line between Zamora and Ourense?
When the line is finished, there won´t be any, except for one of the tubes at the Padornelo tunnel.

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I was just wondering if it will be possible to open the rest of the line in piecemeal or it will have to be in one go.
In one go would be the best option in any case.
In particular, since services Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense and Puebla de Sanabria-Zamora-Valladolid have been cancelled.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:20 AM   #2278
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In particular, since services Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense and Puebla de Sanabria-Zamora-Valladolid have been cancelled.
You mean a local service? I checked and there are still two trains a day stopping en-route from Madrid to Santiago.

Actually this kind of situation annoys me a lot (in many countries). What is the point of having only two trains a day, both in the afternoon? Very few people will use them. In my opinion you should either have a train connection with a decent regularity or decide that for a particular location it doesn't make sense and replace it with a bus service.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #2279
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It is our real nightmare in the low-density areas.

No people, no trains.
No trains, no passengers...
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Old October 30th, 2013, 01:52 AM   #2280
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You mean a local service? I checked and there are still two trains a day stopping en-route from Madrid to Santiago.
Yes, those are Alvia trains.

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Actually this kind of situation annoys me a lot (in many countries). What is the point of having only two trains a day, both in the afternoon? Very few people will use them. In my opinion you should either have a train connection with a decent regularity or decide that for a particular location it doesn't make sense and replace it with a bus service.
I think a regional local service could still attract some passengers IF it was well planned.
Having Puebla de Sanabria as terminus doesn´t improve things, I believe the regional trains should be Zamora (or Valladolid) and Ourense.
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