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Old October 30th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #2281
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Just as comparison, for contextualizing the population distribution in Spain is completely different from any other European country.

Spanish cities and urban areas are compact, even towns are compact, and most of the countryside has not sprawled settlements (except for the Atlantic coast in Galicia). It doesn't mean necessarily a lower population, but a completely different spatial distribution. It has nothing to do with the situation in France, Germany or Italy.

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Old October 30th, 2013, 03:20 PM   #2282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Just as comparison, for contextualizing the population distribution in Spain is completely different from any other European country.
Really? Even compared to Portugal, Greece...?
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Spanish cities and urban areas are compact, even towns are compact, and most of the countryside has not sprawled settlements (except for the Atlantic coast in Galicia). It doesn't mean necessarily a lower population, but a completely different spatial distribution. It has nothing to do with the situation in France, Germany or Italy.
But the map of this scale is completely off topic.

So how about maps showing population density on SMALL scale - central city, suburbs, villages, countryside? Some from Galicia, some from rest of Spain, some from France or Germany...

I understand that in parts of Spain, much of the farming population is concentrated in small towns or large villages, and the countryside in between is empty of small villages, hamlets or separate farms - peasants commute long distances to their fields on foot, and even if they occasionally pitch tents or have huts on their farms, they do not dwell there year round but return to their homes in villages/towns.

But isn´t there something similar in Sicily or such parts of southern Italy?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 06:16 PM   #2283
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Really? Even compared to Portugal, Greece...?
I haven't said anything about Portugal or Greece. Anyway, they are smaller countries. However, yes, probably population distribution in Greece is kind of similar to Spain, not sure though. I have not uniform data for state it. Portugal on the other hand is not like Spain at all, or at least, not completely. The western strip from Lisbon to the northern border is much more sprawled than any area in Spain (Galicia Atlantic coast is sort of similar, but in a much smaller area). The rest of Portugal is sort of similar to Spain, that's true.

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But the map of this scale is completely off topic.

So how about maps showing population density on SMALL scale - central city, suburbs, villages, countryside? Some from Galicia, some from rest of Spain, some from France or Germany...

I understand that in parts of Spain, much of the farming population is concentrated in small towns or large villages, and the countryside in between is empty of small villages, hamlets or separate farms - peasants commute long distances to their fields on foot, and even if they occasionally pitch tents or have huts on their farms, they do not dwell there year round but return to their homes in villages/towns.

But isn´t there something similar in Sicily or such parts of southern Italy?
I don't understand your point here. The scale of the map is appropriate for comparing population distribution and trends around Europe. Smaller scales would show only particular situations in smaller areas, but not a general gradient through the territory in a continuous way . For showing that settlements (rural and urban ones) in Spain are much more compact than in most of Europe, it is appropriate. Distances and population distribution makes that network design needs to be completely different in Spain than in other countries with developed high speed networks and services such as France, Germany and Italy (we can include other countries here, for sure, but they won't have high speed coverage to be compared with).

Anyway, here you have the smaller scales for big urban areas, which at some point, show trends in urban planning within a country. You see that Madrid is much more compact than most of European cities and sprawled areas are really small.

(Sorry for the OT)

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Old October 30th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post

Anyway, here you have the smaller scales for big urban areas, which at some point, show trends in urban planning within a country. You see that Madrid is much more compact than most of European cities and sprawled areas are really small.
And this means that it is relatively easy to serve Madrid by rail. If you put all Cercanias and Madrid Metro stations on the map, how many people in Madrid are within walking distance of a station, and how many are not?

Equal large scale density of an urban sprawl would be much harder to serve because only a small part of people would be near a station.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #2285
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And this means that it is relatively easy to serve Madrid by rail. If you put all Cercanias and Madrid Metro stations on the map, how many people in Madrid are within walking distance of a station, and how many are not?

Equal large scale density of an urban sprawl would be much harder to serve because only a small part of people would be near a station.
But it is nothing to with high speed lines, but with urban transportation.

Anyway, for sure: serving a compact city with mass transit systems is much easier and cheaper than a sprawled city. You have the perfect example of Lon Angeles, where developing an efficient mass transit system is almost impossible.

For the particular percentage of population served by urban railways I would need to put all the data together in the GIS to check it out properly.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #2286
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But it is nothing to with high speed lines, but with urban transportation.
Looking at the population density map of Spain, note that there are dense populated stretches of coast alternating with sparsely settled ones.
  1. A stretch of coast from Figueres? to Tarragona? is dense
    - Then there is empty stretch Tarragona? to Castello?. Amposta is alone and separated by empty coast both sides
  2. The coast from Castello? to Cartagena is continuously densely settled.
    - Then a very empty coast separates Cartagena and Almeria
  3. The coast from Almeria to Tarifa is densely settled.
    - Then Tarifa is separated by empty coast from Cadiz
  4. Atlantic coast is densely settled between Donostia and Santander
    - Then the coast is empty between Santander and el Ferrol del caudillo. Gijon is alone and separated by empty coasts either side.
  5. Rias Baixas are densely settled from Vigo to Pontevedra
    -Then the coast around Finisterre is sparsely settled, but a densely settled belt crosses overland to el Ferrol del Caudillo.
Would these Mediterranean coastal stretches need high speed rails to serve them?
And does the presence of rural sprawl on Atlantic side and absence thereof on the Mediterranean side mean that a high speed railway Castello-Cartagena would be much more functional (because stations can be built where people live) than a high speed railway Donostia-Santander (because people are scattered and few of them live wherever stations shall be)?
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Old October 30th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #2287
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Looking at the population density map of Spain, note that there are dense populated stretches of coast alternating with sparsely settled ones.
  1. A stretch of coast from Figueres? to Tarragona? is dense
    - Then there is empty stretch Tarragona? to Castello?. Amposta is alone and separated by empty coast both sides
  2. The coast from Castello? to Cartagena is continuously densely settled.
    - Then a very empty coast separates Cartagena and Almeria
  3. The coast from Almeria to Tarifa is densely settled.
    - Then Tarifa is separated by empty coast from Cadiz
  4. Atlantic coast is densely settled between Donostia and Santander
    - Then the coast is empty between Santander and el Ferrol del caudillo. Gijon is alone and separated by empty coasts either side.
  5. Rias Baixas are densely settled from Vigo to Pontevedra
    -Then the coast around Finisterre is sparsely settled, but a densely settled belt crosses overland to el Ferrol del Caudillo.
Would these Mediterranean coastal stretches need high speed rails to serve them?
And does the presence of rural sprawl on Atlantic side and absence thereof on the Mediterranean side mean that a high speed railway Castello-Cartagena would be much more functional (because stations can be built where people live) than a high speed railway Donostia-Santander (because people are scattered and few of them live wherever stations shall be)?
You have described the distribution of population along the coast pretty well.

For regional services you don't need high speed lines for sure. So, for scattered population, a top speed of 200 km/h is usually enough. However, along the Mediterranean coast, if you want to link in a efficient way the main cities (mostly Barcelona and Valencia) you need a higher speed.

To make it simple, usually a conventional line can be feasible if there is a high density of population, even if long distance services would need higher speeds for better travel times. But if you have large urban centers separated by relatively long distances like in Spain, a high speed line is far better.

As well, the saturation of conventional lines in those populated areas can be a good reason for building a new parallel line.

The situation in the medium term along the Mediterranean corridor will have separated lines for long distance high speed services (+300 km/h) and for regional/commuter trains + freight trains on conventional rails in the most saturated stretches (Tarragona-Barcelona-Girona and Castellón-Valencia); while in the stretch from Vandellós (around 40 km south from Tarragona) to Castellón will get a shared line (top speed +220 km/h) shared by all trains, as regional/commuter services are not that frequent.
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Old October 30th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #2288
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I wouldn´t bother.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:12 AM   #2289
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post

For regional services you don't need high speed lines for sure. So, for scattered population, a top speed of 200 km/h is usually enough. However, along the Mediterranean coast, if you want to link in a efficient way the main cities (mostly Barcelona and Valencia) you need a higher speed.

To make it simple, usually a conventional line can be feasible if there is a high density of population, even if long distance services would need higher speeds for better travel times. But if you have large urban centers separated by relatively long distances like in Spain, a high speed line is far better.

As well, the saturation of conventional lines in those populated areas can be a good reason for building a new parallel line.
Are there any among these populous coastlines where the conventional line is 1000 rather than 1676 mm?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:23 AM   #2290
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Are there any among these populous coastlines where the conventional line is 1000 rather than 1676 mm?
There are, but they are independent and complementary lines. The main network is Iberian and standard gauge. In the metropolitan area of Barcelona, metropolitan area of Valencia, Alicante-Denia and Cartagena-Los Nietos you can find narrow gauge lines; but they are commuter, urban and regional lines. They don't affect the main network.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:35 AM   #2291
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There are, but they are independent and complementary lines. The main network is Iberian and standard gauge.
How about Feve, on the other hand?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:44 AM   #2292
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Are there any among these populous coastlines where the conventional line is 1000 rather than 1676 mm?
No conventional/mainline services. The only narrow gauges in the area are the old FGV lines, which have been converted to Metro / Tram services in Valencia and Alicante respectively, which are metre gauge (the Benidorm-Denia stretch of the Alicante FGV is still diesel hauled, but is branded as part of the Tram as L9).

There is also the Cartagena - Los Nietos line, which is either 1000mm or 1067mm, not sure which, but that is totally separate to mainline operations as well, and is still DMU operated.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:44 AM   #2293
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How about Feve, on the other hand?
Feve doesn´t exist anymore. Now it´s Renfe.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 12:50 AM   #2294
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Those lines are operated and managed by different public companies. Several lines originally managed by FEVE at the origin, were tranferred to different autonomous communities governments in 1979. However, FEVE does not longer exist as an independent public company. FEVE lines were transferred in 2013 to Adif and FEVE today is only the name of the services operated by Renfe on the former FEVE lines.

-Narrow lines in Catalonia are operated and managed by FGC (Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya).
-Narrow lines in the Valencian Community are operated and managed by FGV (Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat Valenciana) in two different networks: MetroValencia and TRAM Alicante.
-The only narrow gauge line still managed by the central government on the Mediterranean coast is Cartagena-Los Nietos, currenty operated by Renfe under the brand FEVE.

None of those companies have high speed services though. In the future, with the liberalization of passenger services FGC would be interested in operating regional high speed services between the cities of Catalonia, but nothing has been confirmed officially.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 02:03 AM   #2295
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Basicly, "long distance trains in narrow gauges" are Bilbao-Ferrol and Bilbao-Leon. The rest of them should be considered as commuter ones.


Either, in the north-west of Madrid you can find the only narrow line that has been always operated by Renfe. It is part of Madrid commuter network.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 10:43 AM   #2296
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Basicly, "long distance trains in narrow gauges" are Bilbao-Ferrol and Bilbao-Leon. The rest of them should be considered as commuter ones.
And the line Hendaye-Bilbao(Euskotren part)-el Ferrol (Feve part) follows the densely settled coast at least between Hendaye and Santander.
Is there a need for a parallel high speed railway?
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Old October 31st, 2013, 11:01 AM   #2297
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Is there a need for a parallel high speed railway?
Of course there is! To make long distance traffic faster.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 11:25 AM   #2298
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And the line Hendaye-Bilbao(Euskotren part)-el Ferrol (Feve part) follows the densely settled coast at least between Hendaye and Santander.
Is there a need for a parallel high speed railway?
Actually, the high speed line between Bilbao and Irun is being built.
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Old October 31st, 2013, 11:49 AM   #2299
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Either, in the north-west of Madrid you can find the only narrow line that has been always operated by Renfe. It is part of Madrid commuter network.
The Ferrocarril de Guadarrama is branded as suburban line C-9, but it is not a suburban line. It is mainly if not only for tourists, and sadly it is really neglected.

Another link from Ferropedia: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Ferroc...ea_116_de_Adif)
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Old November 1st, 2013, 01:31 PM   #2300
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I don't think 2014 version of this map has been published here already.



And here are some details:

LAV Medina del Campo Ourense Santiago: 878,4 M€
Corredor Mediterráneo de Alta Velocidad ( Almería – Frontera Francesa ): 558,21 M€
Adaptación del Corredor Mediterráneo al ancho estándar: 273,46 M€
Variante de Pajares: 265,6 M€
LAV Extremadura ( Badajoz – Oropesa ) : 198,7 M€
Eje Atlántico de AV: 194,7 M€
LAV Vitoria Bilbao San Sebastián ( Excepto lo construido por ETS ) :190 M€
LAV Valladolid Burgos Vitoria: 186,24 M€
Corredor Mediterráneo de Alta Velocidad (Bobadilla Granada): 136,4 M€
LAV Venta de Baños León: 105,25 M€
Renovación de catenaria de la línea conv. Palencia – Cantabria : 63,61M€
ERTMS para varias LAV’s: 50 M€
LAV Sevilla Cádiz: 49,41 M€
Electrificación de la línea conv. Medina – Salamanca LAV: 35,2 M€
RAF de Madrid: 32 M€
LAV Mora Jaén: 23,28 M€
Corredor Cantábrico Mediterráneo ( todas las actuaciones ): 20,16 M€

http://www.geotren.es/blog/presupues...-por-corredor/

Major push towards Galicia continues, no surprise there. Combined spending on the Mediterranean corridor is substantial as well. For clarity authors could have added the Basque triangle part not funded by the central government as well. By the way what goes under RAF de Madrid?

A bit funny how finely it has been detailed - 0.00046% for whatever they are planning to do between A Coruna and Ferrol
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