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Old November 1st, 2013, 01:47 PM   #2301
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R.A.F. de Madrid stands for Red Arterial Ferroviaria de Madrid (Madrid Trunk Railway Network). It refers mostly to the new standard gauge tunnel between Atocha and Chamartín (but the Madrid Trunk Network is not only that tunnel for sure).
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Old November 2nd, 2013, 08:10 PM   #2302
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Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

Photos taken from near the base of Olmedo till Nava del Rey, shortly after Medina del Campo on the way to Zamora and Galicia.
The works to lay the rails are about to start.

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Photos near Nava del Rey:









Link between Olmedo junction on the Madrid-Valladolid HSL and Medina del Campo station.





Old Segovia-Medina del Campo line, access to the Olmedo base from the classic network:





Current link between the Madrid-Valladolid HSL and Medina del Campo, using part of the old classic Segovia-Medina del Campo line. Sleepers for the second track are in place.





The link between Olmedo junction on the HSL and Medina del Campo. In hindsight, the Olmedo base:





The Olmedo base:















Class 335 loco, of Ferrovial.

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Old November 2nd, 2013, 08:20 PM   #2303
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Does anyone know what is the standard technology for laying tracks on a HS line once the ground is ready? Is it done with a train which lies sleepers and track in front of it or is there some othe wheeled transport involved?
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Old November 4th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #2304
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Madrid-Chamartín station.
Connection to the HSR tunnel towards Madrid-Atocha and beyond.
It will allow through HS trains between Northern Spain and Eastern and Southern Spain.
Then, when it´ll be open, some trains won´t be radial anymore, but diametral, then.

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Old November 4th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #2305
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Will there be some other station where trains can depart from? For instance, a train Chamartin-Barcelona... where could it start within Madrid, or is there enough space in Chamartin yards to store the train, clean and reverse it for a later trip?
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Old November 4th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #2306
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In Chamartin there is enough space. The problem is the tracks situacion southern Puerta de Atocha.

This is, any train departing Chamartin will cross Puerta de Atocha in its western side.

Should it want to go to Valencia, Malaga, Seville, no problem...

Should it want to go to Barcelona or north-east, it will have to cross absolutely all tracks. That is impossible to manage with all trains arriving or departing Atocha.

So then, a brigde over these tracks will be compulsory.

In other words...

Phase 1. Possibility to arrive to Chamartin from Valencia, Malaga and Seville but non-stop at Puerta de Atocha
Phase 2. Calling at Puerta de Atocha too
Phase 3. Allow trains from Barcelona to stop there too.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 04:13 PM   #2307
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A bridge for allowing to enroute trains from HS Atocha-Chamartin tunnel to/from HSL Madrid-Barcelona was planned in southern Madrid, wasn't it?

Anyway, diametral trains Southern/Eastern Spain - Northwest Spain need to cross Madrid, however, many of the diametral trains between Northeast Spain and Northwest Spain can be enrouted via Logroño/Pamplona - Burgos. So, for the latter there are feasible alternatives out of Madrid hub.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
A bridge for allowing to enroute trains from HS Atocha-Chamartin tunnel to/from HSL Madrid-Barcelona was planned in southern Madrid, wasn't it?
More than planned, hinted.
There are no serious current plans to link the Madrid-Barcelona HSL to Chamartín station.

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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Anyway, diametral trains Southern/Eastern Spain - Northwest Spain need to cross Madrid, however, many of the diametral trains between Northeast Spain and Northwest Spain can be enrouted via Logroño/Pamplona - Burgos. So, for the latter there are feasible alternatives out of Madrid hub.
That´s correct.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #2309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
A bridge for allowing to enroute trains from HS Atocha-Chamartin tunnel to/from HSL Madrid-Barcelona was planned in southern Madrid, wasn't it?

Anyway, diametral trains Southern/Eastern Spain - Northwest Spain need to cross Madrid, however, many of the diametral trains between Northeast Spain and Northwest Spain can be enrouted via Logroño/Pamplona - Burgos. So, for the latter there are feasible alternatives out of Madrid hub.
Hinted as 437 said...

And I would really focus in diametral trains rather than arriving trains from Barcelona to M-Chamartin either to the airport.

In other threads I've explained my proposal about how it should have been done. More or less like in Paris. An orbital rail link and approaching Madrid by two sides... but we have current network.

If we see any map we will notice that with any works on going or planned, connections north east - north west doesn't require to go through Madrid... but north-south (north-east to soth-elsewhere...) are quite important.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 05:21 PM   #2310
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Well, that's another different thing: the high speed link to the Barajas airport.

With current layout in Madrid, enrouting long distances trains from Chamartin to the airport or forcing a transfer to the existing commuter train doesn't make a big difference.

Completely different it would be in the case of having a complete direct bypass linking the HSL Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona and the HSL Madrid-Valladolid via the airport.

The situation in Paris is much better considering the bypass through Chessy and CDG, but worse for the terminus layout in central Paris. But the point is that the bypass in Paris assures diametral services in France, but in Madrid it would be redundant as the link between Atocha and Chamartín would be existing.

In the really long term, this bypass through Barajas could be fun, for offering diametral services with direct link to the airport.

Anyway, the situation in Madrid and Paris are completely different, as the start conditions were different too.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #2311
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Let's say line to airport only... I do not know how many services will have Barajas as terminus but... passengers will save only two or three minutes.

Providing not all of them will arrive there, a connection to a commuter train will be as effective as enlarging journey.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #2312
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The HSR connection between Barajas Airport and Madrid Chamartín station doesn't have any sense, in my opinion. The route is redundant with the commuter rail line, and due to the difference of gauges and electrification between both services, I understand that there will be two single tracks between Fuente de la Mora station and the Airport station, instead of just a double track, decreasing the capacity of the line; now there can only be a commuter train every half an hour.

Moreover the Airport station is not prepared for being the terminus of long distance services, as it only has two tracks. It has more sense to increase the frequency of commuter trains (which can be freely used with a long distance ticket) between Fuente de la Mora and Barajas and provide good connection with high speed services in Chamartín station.

The connection of the HSL to Barcelona and the Madrid tunnel could be interesting for Barcelona - Galicia services, but I don't see any other services which could use that line, maybe Zaragoza - Valladolid. Anyway, when the next phase (underground platforms in Atocha station) is ready, there will be a convenient transfer in that station between through services and those starting or finishing in Atocha.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #2313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The HSR connection between Barajas Airport and Madrid Chamartín station doesn't have any sense, in my opinion. The route is redundant with the commuter rail line, and due to the difference of gauges and electrification between both services, I understand that there will be two single tracks between Fuente de la Mora station and the Airport station, instead of just a double track, decreasing the capacity of the line; now there can only be a commuter train every half an hour.

Moreover the Airport station is not prepared for being the terminus of long distance services, as it only has two tracks. It has more sense to increase the frequency of commuter trains (which can be freely used with a long distance ticket) between Fuente de la Mora and Barajas and provide good connection with high speed services in Chamartín station.
That´s what many people believe...
Commuter rail should have the priority over long distance, when it comes to getting to the airport.

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The connection of the HSL to Barcelona and the Madrid tunnel could be interesting for Barcelona - Galicia services, but I don't see any other services which could use that line, maybe Zaragoza - Valladolid.
Barcelona-Gijón, Barcelona-Ponferrada, Barcelona-Santander, and Barcelona-Salamanca.
It would be shorter and faster, in each case, than the current route via Logroño or Pamplona.

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Anyway, when the next phase (underground platforms in Atocha station) is ready, there will be a convenient transfer in that station between through services and those starting or finishing in Atocha.
That´s not the next phase...
The next phase is the opening of the tunnel, and that does not include any new Atocha through platform.
The through HS platforms at Atocha will be very expensive. It´ll take longer than many people believe, to have them opened.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #2314
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Anyway, I don't see really useful extending long distance services to Barajas (even if the break of gauge and electrification is ignored). CDG railway services are really useful and synergies are really strongs because it is the only way of bypassing Paris and it is not a terminus station. In the case of Barajas, it will be always just a branch of a mainline and a terminus station. Even if the HSL is enlarged to relink the HSL Madrid-Valladolid up in the north it will be a longer way.

The only (and extremely expensive way) of making a long distance station feasible in Barajas would be a bypass from the Jarama river bridge on the HSL Madrid-Barcelona to the HSL Madrid-Valladolid for making easier those diametral services.

Personally, I don't thing it can be considered a priority. I prefer to have a really good commuter train service from Chamartín, as well as sort of the same is expected to do in el Prat in Barcelona.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 11:40 PM   #2315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Barcelona-Gijón, Barcelona-Ponferrada, Barcelona-Santander, and Barcelona-Salamanca. It would be shorter and faster, in each case, than the current route via Logroño or Pamplona.
I know these services will be possible, but I don't know if some of these routes make a lot of sense... I mean Barcelona - Santander via Madrid is a little strange route, but currently there is no direct rail service between both cities, so who knows... On the other hand, Barcelona - Salamanca via Madrid wouldn't surprise me.

Once the HSL Valladolid - León / Burgos opens, travel times between Barcelona and most of these destinations will be reduced, also still using the current route via Logroño or Pamplona.

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That´s not the next phase... The next phase is the opening of the tunnel, and that does not include any new Atocha through platform. The through HS platforms at Atocha will be very expensive. It´ll take longer than many people believe, to have them opened.
I know, by "next" I mean the following phase of the project, that will only be started some years after the tunnel enters into service, not the part that is now under construction.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 11:52 PM   #2316
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Providing Madrid link is finished, Barcelona-Gijon will be faster via Madrid, yes.

But providing the HSL Valladolid-Miranda de Ebro is finished (nowadays Valladolid-Burgos on going, Burgos-Miranda 90ish km. not startet), I would state that similar time...

And price will make no wonder to go via Madrid
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Old November 5th, 2013, 12:01 AM   #2317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Providing Madrid link is finished, Barcelona-Gijon will be faster via Madrid, yes.

But providing the HSL Valladolid-Miranda de Ebro is finished (nowadays Valladolid-Burgos on going, Burgos-Miranda 90ish km. not startet), I would state that similar time...

And price will make no wonder to go via Madrid
Besides, don't forget in the medium-long term the high speed line from Zaragoza to Castejón (and maybe further in a longer term) which will make faster the Ebro corridor for Mediterranean-Northern Spain services.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 12:30 AM   #2318
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I do not forget it but... nowadays we have:

Zaragoza-Madrid P.A. 1:18
Madrid Ch-Palencia 1:36 that would be about 1:20 or so with HSL
Let's consider about 20 minutes at least for Madrid link and a "short" stop (the record was 48 minutes stop for a Seville-Barcelona)

So then, Zaragoza-Palencia about 3:15 via Madrid with full HSL

Today Zaragoza-Palencia via Miranda takes 4:40 via Pamplona and 4:20 via Logroño.
Let's consider 20 minutes saving time if Valladolid-Burgos is finished (HSL should arrive to Burgos and to Palencia at the same time). I am not considering until Miranda or until Vitoria because it is not on works yet.

We are talking about 4:00 via Logroño

How much will cost as "extra" just to save 45 minutes in a journey longer than five hours (any journey far away from Palencia or before Zaragoza would take that time).

I do not suppose many passengers would use it.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 08:19 PM   #2319
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Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres HSL.

A class 114 train, near Fornells de la Selva (Girona), on some tests.

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Old November 8th, 2013, 08:33 PM   #2320
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Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca HSL (and Zaragoza-Tardienta-Lleida classic line).

Bridge over river Ebro, between Miraflores and San Juan de Mozarrifar stations, in Zaragoza.
The bridge allows two tracks through it, one for the HSL, the other for the classic line.
On the second picture, you can see the old single-track viaduct, abandoned.
The HSL is the track on the left (you can tell because the overhead wires are different).

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