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Old December 31st, 2013, 04:41 PM   #2441
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A new "local" station on a HSL?
So it seems.

This new Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station will be, by far, the station in the least populated area of the country, until the Sanabria station opens on the Galicia HSL, but then again, future Sanabria station will have Bragança at a reasonable distance (across the Portuguese border, though).

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What trains will stop there?
Good question...
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Old January 1st, 2014, 01:33 PM   #2442
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Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon HSL.
Leon station.


Future track scheme at the provisory station:

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Red: standard gauge.
Black: Iberian gauge.
Yellow: platforms.
Blue: station building.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 05:08 PM   #2443
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Madrid-Extremadura(-Lisbon) HSL.
Section Cáceres-Mérida.

The platform has been finished in the area near Aldea del Cano.
It has also been fenced.

Pics from December 28 2013:

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Old January 1st, 2014, 08:57 PM   #2444
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It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon? Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense. Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago. It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise.

Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:00 PM   #2445
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon? Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense. Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago. It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise.

Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps
You still have to build 50-60-70 km of tunnels regardless of going further north, just between León and Ponferrada you have to build 10-15 km of new tunnels and between Ponferrada and Ourense you have to tunnel the whole strech, easily 40-50 km of new tunnels and probably more if you want a proper HSR.

The cheapest solution I think would have been going through Portugal over Bragança but then you end up with the problem of who own the infrastructure, who will maintain it and who will control it.

Going through Portugal would also have meant a realistic chance of linking Madrid with Porto in under 4 hours.

Last edited by gincan; January 1st, 2014 at 10:08 PM.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:19 PM   #2446
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon?
That would have meant loads more tunnels.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense.
Why Benavente when you have Zamora which is the head of the province, and it´s more populated?

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago.
That´s already caused a flamewar in the Spanish SSC forum.
I think the Zamora option is better. And it´s also the least difficult one (no option was 'easy').

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It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise.
That would have meant loads of tunneling.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps
It does, indeed. Without entering Portugal, the Zamora-Sanabria-Ourense option is the least difficult (´cause there´s no 'easy' option).

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The cheapest solution I think would have been going through Portugal over Bragança but then you end up with the problem of who own the infrastructure, who will maintain it and who will control it.

Going through Portugal would also have meant a realistic chance of linking Madrid with Porto in under 4 hours.
In Wonderland, or in Oz, or even in the Middle Earth, yes.
But this is Spain doing things with Portugal we´re talking about.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:28 PM   #2447
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Now, serourly, anyway, the route through Bragança (instead of going through Sanabria) was slighlty shorter, but not sure if it was cheaper. Topography around Bragança and Vinhais is really complicated, you have a big natural reserve between Bragança and the northern border with Spain... not sure if it could be better.

Furthermore, economics in Portugal are not exactly well...
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:33 PM   #2448
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Now, serourly, anyway, the route through Bragança (instead of going through Sanabria) was slighlty shorter, but not sure if it was cheaper. Topography around Bragança and Vinhais is really complicated, you have a big natural reserve between Bragança and the northern border with Spain... not sure if it could be better.
Zamora-Bragança-Verín-Xinzo de Limia-Ourense would have made sense... IF Portugal had said yes.

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Furthermore, economics in Portugal are not exactly well...
...while Spain is bathing in a pool made of diamonds and silver, and full of liquid gold.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:37 PM   #2449
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Zamora-Bragança-Verín-Xinzo de Limia-Ourense would have made sense... IF Portugal had said yes.
Yes, absolutely. I would have loved that route... but if Portugal says no... what else you can do?
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Old January 1st, 2014, 10:42 PM   #2450
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It could very well be that the best option in terms of money spent was chosen. The reason I was wondering about those other routes is that they would have had more people living in the immediate surroundings of the line. Mostly because Valladolid is significantly larger than Zamora.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:10 PM   #2451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Yes, absolutely. I would have loved that route... but if Portugal says no... what else you can do?
A long term planning is always better than a short term quick fix. This should have been part of a global Iberian transport plan. Other countries have drabbled border links for decades but once built they have always proven the best solution.

The channel tunnel didn't happen over night, nor did the oresund link. I'm sure the European Union could get Spain and Portugal to cooperate better than in the past. It is all about political pressure.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:18 PM   #2452
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
A long term planning is always better than a short term quick fix. This should have been part of a global Iberian transport plan. Other countries have drabbled border links for decades but once built they have always proven the best solution.

The channel tunnel didn't happen over night, nor did the oresund link. I'm sure the European Union could get Spain and Portugal to cooperate better than in the past. It is all about political pressure.
Sure... but in this case situation is different as in this case you are assuming the connection of a big part of a country (Galicia) depends on the cooperation with another country (Portugal), when there is another solution which depends only on the decisions and politics of the first country, and both alternatives are kind of the same considering the cost.

This wouldn't have been just an international connection, but making a national connection conditional to the needs of other country...
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:26 PM   #2453
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I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:31 PM   #2454
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I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...
Bragança has been always the most remote capital of mainland Portugal. And it lost its railway connection in the early 90's.

It is a small city, but probably the cheapest and most efficient way to connect it to Porto was through Ourense, Vigo and later going south by the coast.

As well, the area between Bragança and the coast is really mountainous.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:44 PM   #2455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...
This is the problem when there is no cooperation and coordination between countries. Let's say, Portugal and Spain had cooperatade on this one, being a part of a mixed use railway (250km/h) linking northern Portugal and the rest of the country with Europe.

Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe.

Spain build the railroad in Spain and Portugal build the part in Portugal. Both countries will benefit from this (more trains on the underutilized Spanish network) and you link the fourth largest urban area on the Iberian Peninsula with Madrid.
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:46 PM   #2456
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Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe.
Where is Branços?
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Old January 1st, 2014, 11:55 PM   #2457
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Where is Branços?
Somewhere between Benimolinos, Alcáçar de Sâo Joâo, and Los Mangos de La Mancha Real Mayor.
Thought you ought to know.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 12:05 AM   #2458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe.
Even with the current system Porto will be well connected with all major Galician towns (<3 h). Is the route from Vigo to Porto electrified? Probably not, but it could be...
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 12:09 AM   #2459
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Even with the current system Porto will be well connected with all major Galician towns (<3 h). Is the route from Vigo to Porto electrified? Probably not, but it could be...
Only from Porto to Nine, and later to Braga is electrified.

From Nine to Valença-Tui border the line should be improved, or even building a new one is feasible. But in the short time the conventional line should be updated.

Building a new direct line from Porto to the inner part of the country could be really expensive.
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Old January 2nd, 2014, 12:10 AM   #2460
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Where is Branços?
In Lothlórien of cause
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