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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #2501
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source is linked, thus everybody can see it is not an official press release but a newspaper
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:04 PM   #2502
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But frankly I am reading this thread for a year or so and don't remember any clarification about why one bore of Pajares tunnel is OK while other is clearly botched. I am not an expert but regarding tunnels it isn't nothing unusual that water is sinking into tunnel but this on Pajares looks more like underground river was cut in half and during building no one bothered to properly address this problem just pushed with digging further. So if someone in short could explain to non expert like me how this happened that would be great.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:20 PM   #2503
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And if someone knows that would be interesting to also know if there are some serious proposals for a technical solution (other than digging a new tunnel).
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Old January 16th, 2014, 08:29 PM   #2504
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To my best knowledge... they just... do not know. That's all.

This is, they are planning to open the tunnel that hasn't any problem and will be a single track only.

That will require to update the security plan because it was ready to use one tunnel as a gallery for the other one in case of fatality.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #2505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
And if someone knows that would be interesting to also know if there are some serious proposals for a technical solution (other than digging a new tunnel).
Boring a drainage tunnel with a smaller diameter (~3 m, compared to ~9 m for a full rail tunnel)?
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Old January 17th, 2014, 12:43 AM   #2506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
To my best knowledge... they just... do not know. That's all.
You are not the minister, so just don´t state things as facts when we don´t know the answer.
Because we don´t, and certainly you don´t, either.

You are just quoting the content of an article you posted as if it were a fact, just because the pictures and video attached to it attired your attention.
And that´s no oficial statement at all.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #2507
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why are you so rude? You should learn to write in a more friendly way to other forum users. Who cares if it's not an official statement? There obviously is a river flowing down there and I certainly do not see where lies the problem in sharing that information, be it official or not. It seems to me this is a serious problem, probably related to the planning stage, and will probably cost the spanish taxpayer a lot of resources to solve it and a lot of wasted resources if finally a whole tunnel has to be abandoned as an underground river, and I'm ignoring possible ecological consequences.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #2508
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By now, the immediate ecological consequence at least is the constant flow of water from the drier Duero basin in the South (León province) to the wetter Asturias region in the North; which starts to be a serious problem for some small villages in the León mountains which are losing their traditional sources of water.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 01:58 PM   #2509
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This is the Abdalajís tunnel all over again, but this time it is much worse because the ecological consequences are far greater. In the Abdalajís case they still have not solved the problem that started 9 years ago and it doesn't look look like they ever will.

In the Abdalajís tunnel they managed to lower the water filtration from 600 liters per second down to 30 liters per second as it stand today. In the Pajares tunnel they have managed to lower the water filtration from 1000 liters per second down to 500 liters per second as it stand today but that is still an ecological disaster in the making

This civil engineering work is a good example of everything that is wrong about the spanish model where to many chefs are cooking the stew, IE central government and local politicians with too much power and ambition interfering with the planning process. Excerpt from a news article in el País:

Quote:
Veníamos de hacer los túneles de Guadarrama, que salieron bien. Pero los Picos de Europa son mucho más complicados. En las obras del túnel de San Gotardo [57 kilómetros bajo Los Alpes] estuvieron 10 años de estudios previos. Aquí con unos meses pensaron que era suficiente

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Old January 17th, 2014, 02:23 PM   #2510
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It is a
real scandal. With what it cost just that tunnel (1.6 billion) could be spent on health or education that are under minimum by social cuts. It is an example of how politics in Spain have led the country to the situation that is.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 03:27 PM   #2511
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This is a bad comparison between capital expenses and social current operational expenses. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are different in nature: a railway, highway, airport, canal, electricity transmission line are permanent infrastructure that will serve the population for decades if not more than a century, so their nature is different than spending money in social services on a given year (and then you need the same money next year to provide services again).
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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:32 PM   #2512
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Pajares

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Old January 17th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #2513
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Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

Pictures taken near Toro:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARBALOSIELLA View Post


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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #2514
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Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

A class 335 loco with a train carrying materials for the works:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruela View Post
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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:19 PM   #2515
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I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...
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Old January 18th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #2516
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Because approaching Zamora (or Olmedo junction, can´t remember where this is) station you don´t need to run at 350 km/h, they´re using the classic line station, and a stretch of the classic line.

It´s a good question, since when you look in Google Maps you don´t find such a tight bend between Olmedo junction and Zamora.

I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #2517
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update

Basque "Y" HSL.

River Deba viaduct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPT View Post
27-Sep-2013



11-Oct-2013



12-Nov-2013



27-Nov-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPT View Post
16-Jan-2014

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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #2518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Because approaching Zamora (or Olmedo junction, can´t remember where this is) station you don´t need to run at 350 km/h, they´re using the classic line station, and a stretch of the classic line.

It´s a good question, since when you look in Google Maps you don´t find such a tight bend between Olmedo junction and Zamora.

I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.
Actually, I am not sure the location where that pic has been taken, but if anybody checks the line from Medina del Campo to Zamora, the design is pretty gentle and no tight curves can be observed.

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Old January 18th, 2014, 08:59 PM   #2519
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According to a Spanish forumer, this is the place where the tight curves picture was taken...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPT View Post
mirando la traza en google maps y bing, sólo hay dos puntos entre Olmedo y Zamora donde se de curva-contracurva. Uno es a la entrada de Zamora descartado porque en ese tramo va paralela la via actual y el otro a la altura de Fresno de la Ribera.

Apuesto por este ultimo desde el punto que indico:



El terraplen que se ve al fondo a la derecha es la A11.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #2520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.
It seems it was the zoom effect.

I´ve been told it´s this point that Reivajar shows, near Fresno de la Ribera. So yes, trains will run at speeds close to 300km/h here:
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