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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #2521
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Are you completely sure that is the right place? I'm aware that zoom effects could be drastic, but here I was comparing the length of the bend with a length of the work train as well as the size humans in the foreground and background. Considering that it doesn't seem to be much longer than the length of one long train… I was thinking that perhaps there is a station immediately outside the shot on the right side. In that case low speed on the bend would be no issue. If it's in the middle of fields then it's more difficult to explain...
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:17 PM   #2522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Are you completely sure that is the right place?
If it´s Fresno de la Ribera (and I´d say it is, but the zoom effect is tremendous), I´m certain that the speed will be of around 250 km/h or higher.
Just look at Google Maps, do Google "Zamora" and follow the works of the HSL towards the East...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I'm aware that zoom effects could be drastic, but here I was comparing the length of the bend with a length of the work train as well as the size humans in the foreground and background. Considering that it doesn't seem to be much longer than the length of one long train… I was thinking that perhaps there is a station immediately outside the shot on the right side. In that case low speed on the bend would be no issue. If it's in the middle of fields then it's more difficult to explain...
There isn´t any other logical option, since all the other options (Zamora approach) imply that the classic line runs just next to the HSL.

And rails aren´t laid beyond Zamora...

And if it were near Olmedo junction, there is double track, so it can´t be between Medina and Olmedo junction.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #2523
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Yeah, I guess you are right. Still that is one mighty zoom effect if trains will be able to run there at 250 km/h
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #2524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Yeah, I guess you are right. Still that is one mighty zoom effect if trains will be able to run there at 250 km/h
Actually, this is a subject that we sometimes discuss in the Spanish forum whenever these kind of pictures of bends are posted.

The zoom effect can really distort the real picture, so sometimes things like this can be a bit confusing.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #2525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...
The picture was taken here:
https://goo.gl/maps/D85pW
View from east to west
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Old January 18th, 2014, 10:23 PM   #2526
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In the Pajares tunnel they have managed to lower the water filtration from 1000 liters per second down to 500 liters per second as it stand today but that is still an ecological disaster in the making
Do you know what method(s) have been used to stop the water ingress? Injecting grout or something else?
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Old January 18th, 2014, 11:27 PM   #2527
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Old January 19th, 2014, 07:04 PM   #2528
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Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo Junction-Medina del Campo AV-Zamora.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruela View Post
A freight train Vigo-Sagunto running next to the works:

image hosted on flickr




Ferrovial class 335 loco:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/afzamorana/
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Old January 19th, 2014, 07:38 PM   #2529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuZealand View Post
Do you know what method(s) have been used to stop the water ingress? Injecting grout or something else?
Injection

The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is basically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.

This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned
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Last edited by gincan; January 20th, 2014 at 04:30 PM.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 08:30 PM   #2530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Injection
The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is baically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.
This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned
Regarding that I've a question. I don't know method in which this section was done but using TBMs such water ingress shouldn't be possible as head under pressure should stop it and after tubes installation everything should be dry. Was there other method in use or TBMs pressure wasn't enough?
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Old January 20th, 2014, 04:24 PM   #2531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Regarding that I've a question. I don't know method in which this section was done but using TBMs such water ingress shouldn't be possible as head under pressure should stop it and after tubes installation everything should be dry. Was there other method in use or TBMs pressure wasn't enough?
There is no such thing as a water proof TBM, they all leak water during construction, the only difference is that when you run through an underground river like they have done in this case, it become impossible to control the water inflow. To give you an idea, the number reported in media is 500 liters per second, at that rate you can fill an Olympic-size swimming pool in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The problem is instead a lack of a proper geological survey, had they spent the time and money doing a proper investigation, they would have found the chosen route unsuitable, going for a different route. Fixing this now will cost hundreds of millions of euros when a thorough survey would have cost at most a few tens of millions.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 05:15 PM   #2532
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Can't they build a water tunnel that takes the water out of the mountain into a reservoir?
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Old January 20th, 2014, 10:06 PM   #2533
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Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo Junction-Zamora.

Class 335 loco on the HSL with a ballast train, near Monte La Reina, on Jan/19/2013:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruela View Post
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


http://www.flickr.com/photos/afzamorana/
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Old January 21st, 2014, 01:50 AM   #2534
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Valladolid-Venta de Bańos-Palencia-Leon-Asturias HSL.
Section La Robla-Pola de Lena (Pajares new line).

Excepting the Pola de Lena pictures, all the other images were taken between Campomanes and the Pajares tunnels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neuromancer View Post
All images by dawlad.

Pico de Siero tunnel and entrance to Pola de Lena station:

image hosted on flickr




Pola de Lena railway station, looking towards Oviedo:

image hosted on flickr




Trench near Campomanes (this is the other troublesome point in the project, the area is prone to landslides):

image hosted on flickr




Teso viaduct seen from Campomanes:

image hosted on flickr




Teso viaduct:

image hosted on flickr




Sotiello viaduct:

image hosted on flickr




Teso tunnel portals:

image hosted on flickr




Sotiello tunnel:

image hosted on flickr




Sotiello viaducts:

image hosted on flickr




One of the Sotiello bridges:

image hosted on flickr




North portal of the Sotiello tunnels:

image hosted on flickr




Portals of the Teso tunnels:

image hosted on flickr




San Blas viaduct and Jomezana tunnels:

image hosted on flickr




San Blas viaducts:

image hosted on flickr




North portal of the Pajares tunnels (the ****ed-up one is the one on the right, the other´s alright):

image hosted on flickr




Viaduct over river Huerna:

image hosted on flickr




Works at Telledo:

image hosted on flickr




Pajares tunnel (the ****ed-up one):

image hosted on flickr




Los Pontones tunnel portal:

image hosted on flickr




Teso tunnels:

image hosted on flickr




Portals of Teso tunnels:

image hosted on flickr




Pola de Lena station, looking towards Leon, here ends the Pajares new line:

image hosted on flickr
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Last edited by 437.001; January 21st, 2014 at 01:57 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 01:01 AM   #2535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Can't they build a water tunnel that takes the water out of the mountain into a reservoir?
And when that one is full, then what do they do? Build another one? And then one more? Before you know it the whole of Asturias is full of reservoires to hold all the water. Remember, one olympic sized swimming pool (50x25x2) every 1,5 hours. Right now the water is dumped into the river that runs by the northern end of the tunnel.

And what about the rivers in Castilla y León that now have lost much of their natural water flow? When the spanish newspapers write that they have managed to reverse the water flow of the river systems north of León, they are not joking.

Water that before was flowing from Picos the Europa into Castilla y León is now flowing into Asturias. This is playing God with the natural balance of the eco system. A major ongoing natural disaster that in part is the responsibillity of a man by the name of Francisco Álvarez-Cascos.

If you can read spanish, this news article shed some light into what Francisco Álvarez-Cascos was up to.

http://vozpopuli.com/actualidad/3197...-caso-barcenas

Last edited by gincan; January 22nd, 2014 at 01:16 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:56 AM   #2536
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My idea was building a reservoir and then feeding the water into stream on the area. It is possible to even reverse the flow to Castilla again maybe.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:27 AM   #2537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Injection

The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is basically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.

This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned
The Swedish Hallandsĺs Tunnel and a tunnel in Norway had similar problems. The former was completed by freezing the soaking ground ahead of boring. The latter was done with chemical injections I think.

Hopefully something can be done in this case.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:40 AM   #2538
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The Norwegian tunnel that I was thinking of is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romerike_Tunnel
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:46 PM   #2539
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The Norwegian tunnel that I was thinking of is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romerike_Tunnel
3000 l/min...

Yes, kind of similar: political pressures, too quick to be diged, not properly plugged...
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 01:45 PM   #2540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo Junction-Zamora.

Class 335 loco on the HSL with a ballast train, near Monte La Reina, on Jan/19/2013:
I would say it's a ferrovial ad.
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