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Old March 18th, 2014, 09:58 AM   #2681
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Hey

This question got lost a couple of days ago:

Is there a (spanish?) website with photos of High-Speed-Trains running through the breathtaking scenery of Spain? I'm searching for photos of AVE and co in all their beauty

Thanks!
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Old March 19th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #2682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solchante View Post
AVE vs Bus vs Plane prices (€)
This table on your post is full of inexact data.
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Old March 19th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #2683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Hey

This question got lost a couple of days ago:

Is there a (spanish?) website with photos of High-Speed-Trains running through the breathtaking scenery of Spain? I'm searching for photos of AVE and co in all their beauty

Thanks!
Try www.railpictures.net, there must be something there.
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Last edited by 437.001; March 19th, 2014 at 01:15 AM.
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Old March 19th, 2014, 01:19 AM   #2684
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Is it even feasible to have an exact comparison with both train and air tickets sold by yield management system?
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Old March 19th, 2014, 02:20 AM   #2685
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Quote:
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Is it even feasible to have an exact comparison with both train and air tickets sold by yield management system?
That´s what I meant.
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Old March 19th, 2014, 03:04 AM   #2686
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I have a question: as they built a system from scratch, why didn't ADIF and other government agencies planned high-speed rail links with major airports, especially El Prat and Bajaras?

Related question: is that "ghost airport" in Ciudad Real close to the HSL?
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Old March 19th, 2014, 03:32 AM   #2687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question: as they built a system from scratch, why didn't ADIF and other government agencies planned high-speed rail links with major airports, especially El Prat and Bajaras?

Related question: is that "ghost airport" in Ciudad Real close to the HSL?
To the second question: yes, it is close to the terminal building. Supposedly it was planned to build a rawilway station, buy after all it was a private plan.

https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ciu...af23e8b1e79c2b


Orography and urban geography around and Madrid and Barcelona are not extremely easy to design the new lines that close to the airports.

So, for example, in the case of Barcelona, the design finally chosen is based on a link station in El Prat de Llobregat where you can switch between commuter trains (one station away from the airport) and the high speed network. Why was this option chosen? Just because forcing the HSL to pass through the airport would have meant a long way to get into Barcelona. The airport is just on the coast but the HSL comes from an inland valley which runs paralel to the coast. Along most of the coast of Catalonia, the coastal plain is not that wide for fitting the HSL, that's why that inland valley was chosen. It is the same scheme followed by the AP-7 motorway. Another important factor is the ground around the Barcelona airport: it is really soft because of being alluvial and deltaic ground, so no any kind of tunnel can be digged as they are dangerous and expensive.

In the case of Madrid is more complex, as in 1992 the first line used Atocha as terminal station. When designing the new network, as well you need to consider that maintenance and storage is segregated as the new tracks from the Iberian gauge network, so, for making it easier, the new Madrid-Barcelona HSL line needed to be linked to the Madrid-Seville HSL and to Atocha somehow, and that's why the southern access was chosen. Given that situation, and considering that the new Eastern HSL and the future HSL to Portugal will use as well the southern access to Madrid to Atocha, you have the lineal scheme with the new North-South tunnel betwenn Chamartín and Atocha. So, the ideal thing for serving Barajar airport would have been to force the Madrid-Barcelona HSL to pass under the airport and enter in Madrid through Chamartin (northern station). But in the 2000's it would have meant to keep the two existing HS lines (Madrid-Seville and Madrid-Barcelona) separated (not optimal).

Furthermore, the area between San Fernando de Henares, Mejorada del Campo and Torrejón de Ardoz in eastern Madrid is not that easy, and a big tunnel would have been necessary under the airport. Maybe, in the future, a new northeast bypass between Torrejón de Ardoz and Chamartín for the HSL could be implemented.

I don't know if it is clearer enought, but it is a complicated mix between orography and conditions due to the two different gauges used.
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Old March 19th, 2014, 03:46 AM   #2688
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Thanks for the explanation.

Maybe they could build a high-speed station in Ciudad Real airport, that could help attract a new airline for a very integrated rail+air operation (like KLM at Schiphol or Lufthansa at Frankfurt), especially now that they have more HSL destinations (like the line to Alicante).
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Old March 19th, 2014, 03:57 AM   #2689
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Quote:
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Thanks for the explanation.

Maybe they could build a high-speed station in Ciudad Real airport, that could help attract a new airline for a very integrated rail+air operation (like KLM at Schiphol or Lufthansa at Frankfurt), especially now that they have more HSL destinations (like the line to Alicante).
I think the point is that right now the low-cost structure is changing and moving from secondary to main airports. Furthermore, operating such service is not cheaper probably than flying to a main airport in areas served by the Southern HSL (such as Seville, Cádiz, Málaga or Madrid).

If service is designed well, with the current integrated high speed+commuter train tickets, getting to the Madrid, Barcelona o Málaga airports is quite easy. However, what needs to be improved are the commuter trains services to those airports.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #2690
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News on Spanish High speed network.


HSL has increased passengers in Spain despite crisis and has announced new services on board:

- Wifi service!!!!!. They will start on Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona trains (wow, for me) and will extend the whole network
- Door to door service. With a fee, up to three baggages taken 48 hours in advance in 200 destination and given where you want. It can be an appartment, a hotel, a cruise port...
- Bonus-AVE (or whatever translation). Instead of a 10 tickets pack or so for point-to-point service, just you pay an ammount and have several months to travel within the whole network. Cool discounts if you use it.

Furthermore, the Renfe app has been improved for iOS and Android.
It is possible to buy tickets with the "large family (5+)" discount and with the points plan.
I've used it and found that it runs faster now when querying a schedule.

There are some points missing yet but app seems to be cool in a couple of months.



El Pais has a release about these news

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/03/20/...86_896409.html
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 01:53 AM   #2691
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More news!!

Between April 6 2014 and April 9 2014, the top speed in the section Albacete-Alicante of the Madrid-Alicante HSL will finally be increased to 300 km/h.

The travel time for non-stop Madrid-Alicante AVE services will be of 2h05min, and slightly longer for other services calling at Cuenca, Albacete and/or Villena.

The tests of the ETCS-2 have been successful.

Source (in Spanish): Diario ABC
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 01:35 PM   #2692
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Since the introduction of the new pricing scheme a year ago HS traffic has grown by 24% to 14.9 million passengers, the average price has dropped by 27%, train occupancy increased from 65% to 73% and most importantly revenue has increased by 7%. Completely validates the decision to lower prices and make them more flexible. I suspect there is still money to be made with more frequent trains, better connections, better timing etc.

Source: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...d-traffic.html
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 01:57 PM   #2693
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In addition to what they are already doing or planing to do I'd suggest to find a way to combine AVE/Alvia tickets with local traffic passes at destination.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 02:52 PM   #2694
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The spanish fare system reminds me to airlines, i.e. they sell you a TGV city-city ticket but don't make it easy to reach another final destination, in effect erasing one of the biggest advantages of rail vs airplanes, which is the flexibility to directly reach many more destinations.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 04:48 PM   #2695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In addition to what they are already doing or planing to do I'd suggest to find a way to combine AVE/Alvia tickets with local traffic passes at destination.
It is included in the service indeed!!!!

At first it was included only providing you'd payed ticket at full fare.

Nowadays, it doesn't matter the fare. They will give you a password and, in all commuter stations you can dial it (3 hours in advance departure and 3 hours after arrival) and have a free ticket.

For instance, a relative went to Madrid to take a plane. He had a AVE ticket Zaragoza-Madrid

He took a free commuter train in Zaragoza-Goya, got off at Zaragoza Delicias, later an AVE to Madrid-Puerta de Atocha and the same commuter password was available for a free commuter train until the airport station.


I do not know if this is the service you're asking about
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:19 PM   #2696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Since the introduction of the new pricing scheme a year ago HS traffic has grown by 24% to 14.9 million passengers, the average price has dropped by 27%, train occupancy increased from 65% to 73% and most importantly revenue has increased by 7%. Completely validates the decision to lower prices and make them more flexible. I suspect there is still money to be made with more frequent trains, better connections, better timing etc.

Source: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...d-traffic.html
The global trip share for the AVE line is still not +50% between Madrid and Barcelona despite hourly trains and sub 2h 30 min travel time. Cars, buses and airplanes still make up over half of all trips even though the train is by far the most convenient way of travel.

The prices need to drop even more, I'd say by 20-30%.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:32 PM   #2697
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Quote:
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The global trip share for the AVE line is still not +50% between Madrid and Barcelona despite hourly trains and sub 2h 30 min travel time. Cars, buses and airplanes still make up over half of all trips even though the train is by far the most convenient way of travel.
Do you know what it is? Often when calculating a share of longer distance HS rail cars are ignored because the usual reason people still drive such a long distance is that they need a car on the other end for other trips. Usually that is the case when neither origin nor destination is in the central city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The prices need to drop even more, I'd say by 20-30%.
Possibly, but of course the ultimate goal is to increase revenue not just the share. 20-30% less for tickets might or might not lead to more money earned...
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:38 PM   #2698
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The point is that the high speed service in Spain is not still mature enough, and a good balance between offer, demand, price and revenue is not still reached.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:56 PM   #2699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Do you know what it is? Often when calculating a share of longer distance HS rail cars are ignored because the usual reason people still drive such a long distance is that they need a car on the other end for other trips. Usually that is the case when neither origin nor destination is in the central city.
I´m not saying that every driver should switch to trains, normally the impact is rather that the whole market for trips grows. Barcelona-Madrid corridor is still insignificant in terms of passengers with only 7,8 million in 2013. This is for a corridor between the fourth and fifth largest metropolitan areas in western Europe.

There are many examples of train corridors in Europe with far less inhabitants in the catchment area, still outperforming Madrid-Barcelona. I say this is because it still is to expensive to travel by train in Spain.

Last edited by gincan; March 22nd, 2014 at 08:02 PM.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 08:14 PM   #2700
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Is it 7.8 million train traffic or 7.8 million overall market? The amount of traffic also depends on economic climate and wealth of inhabitants. Spain hasn't been in a rosy situation for some time now.
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