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Old September 20th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #261
Coccodrillo
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It was a temporary level crossing built only to ease the works of the HSL. I suppose there wasn't even a simple flashing light activated by approaching trains...
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Old September 20th, 2010, 05:12 PM   #262
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a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.
1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.

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Would really like to see your source on that.

Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 01:36 AM   #263
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1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.




Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.
Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 02:24 AM   #264
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Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.
Good luck trying to sell Shinkansen in the US then since no one's building fully dedicated tracks with a single exception of Florida.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 03:25 AM   #265
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Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it.


Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot.


New Chinese and Korean trains (and european ones) are being built very heavy. (The new 16 car zefiro weighs 934 tonnes) The new 10 car sapsan is 670 tonnes and the ETR in italy is about 60 tonnes a car. (all single level).. also most intercity coaches that are new weigh in the 50 tonne range as opposed to the way older 35 to 40 tonne range.. Good to see
people are catching on.

I'm not saying weight is the ONLY factor in making a safe train but you need to compromise. I agree that the acela may be a bit too heavy, especially with those massive power cars.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 04:05 AM   #266
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Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it.


Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot.
Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost.
Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 09:03 AM   #267
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Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost.
Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.

Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train.

accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did.

Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 09:32 AM   #268
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Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train.

accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did.

Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.
If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed. So the Japanese approach is correct: avoid accidents at any cost and then you can use much lighter trains. Mind you that heavier trainsets also have disadvantages when accidents occur, due to the higer kinetic energy.

Also we're comparing HS trainsets and HSL's, but this accident wasn't a HS trainset nor was it on a HSL, so everything told here is not applicable to this accident.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 10:26 AM   #269
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^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other.

Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 10:42 AM   #270
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If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed.
This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.

It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 10:48 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.

It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.
I know that my choice of words wasn't very good, but I was reacting to the point that the avoidance of collisions they do in Japan wouldn't be sufficient. Of course they do take it seriously in Spain, but not to the extent the do in Japan, so it's not that silly of them to use lighter trains.

You have to admit that they could have done more in Spain tot prevent this accident, but they thought is was unnecessary. They were proved wrong.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 10:55 AM   #272
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yes, a system warning the aprpoach of a train would have avoided the accident (I don't know if there was one, that the truck driver did not respect)
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Old September 21st, 2010, 11:11 AM   #273
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Train passengers ahould never EVER have to pay for a truck driver's stupitidy and carelessness.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 01:21 PM   #274
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^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other.

Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.
I believe the Shinkansen's on going record of zero fatality through an accident for 40 years is a testament to it's safety.
Various safety devices such as ATS,ATC and other various automated control device makes it virtually impossible for an accident like the transrapid collision to happen.

As for a situation like the above, Japanese construction companies will first fence off the tracks with temporary self-standing fences and create at level crossing section with non intrusion bars and signaling devices to notify and stop traffic when train is approaching. (I believe there are also protocols for how much advance notice is required for these signals based on speed)
Construction companies has kits to set up and/or dismantle to the next construction site when needed.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 12:28 AM   #275
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Spain cuts high speed 'ghost train'

The Telegraph

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.

"Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.

Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.

The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.

Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.

A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.

Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:02 AM   #276
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So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:31 AM   #277
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So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.
I think the article is not making an assessment on high-speed rail as a whole, neither am I. It is just a problem with a specific service that maybe implied the construction of a new flyover.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 06:00 AM   #278
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This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.

It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.

They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these trains have been stopped.

By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.

The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.

The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.

Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.

Last edited by 437.001; June 29th, 2011 at 05:32 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #279
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This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.

It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.

They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these thains have been stopped.

By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.

The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.

The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.

Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.
Estoy 100% contigo! It is what they want to read about us PIGS. 'Spending their money on wasteful infrastructure.' Both AVE lines are relatively succesful on their own (LAV Levante and LAV Toledo) are they not?
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Old June 29th, 2011, 03:07 PM   #280
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Compared to French lines, they aren't...
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