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Old June 29th, 2011, 05:31 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Compared to French lines, they aren't...
With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #282
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With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.
Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares. Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time.

Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 06:06 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.
I know, I know...

With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #284
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Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares.
Right you are.

Quote:
Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time.
The problem is that Renfe should be able to offer many more reduced fare tickets than it does. They seem to prefer to carry less passengers, to target a posh population, rather than just carrying more passengers for about the same amount of money.

We Spaniards all wonder why they do that, we believe it´s non-sense.

Quote:
Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.
True, but only to a certain extent.
There´s routes in which the bus is simply not worth it, or it carries too few passengers to be a real alternative to plane, HST or car.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 07:50 PM   #285
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The Telegraph

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.

"Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.

Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.

The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.

Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.

A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.

Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.
I read this article yesterday and thought the journalists of "telegraph" functionally illiterate. They can not distinguish even between train and railway.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 08:45 PM   #286
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+ 1.000.000

En español se dice mala baba
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Old June 29th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.
Then the whole, 8-years long branding effort of Renfe promoting AVE as a high-quality, better-than-highway, faster-than-plane option would be trashed.

By they might coexist, is a different, independent operation of low-cost trains were to be started. Maybe some private competitor that operates only point-to-point services between major HS markets, no connecting services with other operators etc.
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Old June 29th, 2011, 09:06 PM   #288
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no connecting services with other operators etc
Only a fool would do that
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Old June 30th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #289
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So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.


It is thrue that there are some "white airports", but high speed railways keep with traffic.

Last december connection between Madrid and Valencia was opened, as well a branch to Alicante was partially made (until Albacete and the rest is on works).

Apart of trains Madrid-Valencia (direct ones and with two stops), Madrid-Albacete (considered as regional), Madrid-Alicante (high speed until Albacete and normal railway later)... it was offered to passangers a... Toledo-Albacete. It is just an Albacete-Madrid which continues to Toledo.

Fares at Spain are very strange (there is a thread about that...) and most of passengers would prefer to make connection at Madrid instead of direct trains if those fares.


Journalist wrote as if one railway is closed when only three daily trains will partially dissapear. Just that!.
And... possibilities of connection.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 01:53 AM   #290
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Some photos from the ministry of public works of the NW HSR corridor under construction. The first part between La Coruña and Ourense will open at the end of this year. Actually the section between Santiago de Compostela and La Coruña (Vmax 250) has already been opened for traffic but still lack signaling (ERTMS) and electrification.

Some pics from the to be highest railway bridge in Spain (116 meters)

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

And a few other bridges on the same railway

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto de Deza por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto O Eixo por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto Río Sáramo por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Viaducto Río Portos por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr
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Last edited by gincan; July 9th, 2011 at 01:58 AM.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 02:26 PM   #291
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image hosted on flickr

Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

Beautiful!!
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Old July 10th, 2011, 06:29 PM   #292
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Beautiful
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Old July 10th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #293
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magnífico!!!
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Old July 15th, 2011, 01:26 AM   #294
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muy impresionante
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Old July 15th, 2011, 06:03 PM   #295
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thanks for the pics
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Old July 16th, 2011, 02:46 AM   #296
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Old July 16th, 2011, 09:11 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The Telegraph

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.
.
More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 02:31 AM   #298
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More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.

Some details:

In december 2010, the high speed line Madrid-Valencia with a branch to Albacete (where trains can continue in the normal line to Alicante, for example) was openned to traffic.

Since then, there are high speed trains (13 daily) Madrid-Valencia, some of them with stops at Cuenca and Utiel, as well as there are trains Madrid-Albacete (100% high speed) or Madrid-Albacete-Alicante (after Alicante takes normal railway... high speed is on works there).

They put three daily additional trains more: Albacete-Madrid...-Toledo. Three daily trains which will finish at Toledo instead of Madrid.

Fares were considered as long distance trains... and they were the only long distance trains at Toledo. The rest are regional trains. Also high speed, but only to Madrid (28 minutes journey) and much, much, much cheaper.

People takes at Toledo the train to go to Madrid more than any other city... and the main relation was more expensive in these three trains than in the others (just because type of fares of the company).

The result was no passengers on these trains and... normal service in the others.

The company decided to cancel those trains, having new services Toledo-Madrid only (and with regional fares), and being able to shuttle to Valencia, Albacete (and anywhere, of course).


No line has been closed... just three daily trains with no passengers because the fares system have been cancelled. Instead, some new services have been opened and offer is similar.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 04:52 AM   #299
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Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 04:04 AM   #300
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Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers.
Rail.
It´s the classic line and it´s still some bridge... and some line, the classic one, easily one of the most beautiful lines in Spain!
The landscape in the area might remind some of you of some areas in Britain.
Weather too BTW...
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