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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:29 PM   #3121
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I think the age of new railway building in Spain is coming to an end within the next 4-5 years with the last major works being finished (full Galicia line and Basque Y). To be honest not that many gaps left. The biggest one is probably a line between Murcia and Algeciras. Maybe that one still has a chance although I wouldn't bet money on it.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:50 PM   #3122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The tunneling involved for a HSR (practically continuous between Fuengirola and Gibraltar or Ronda and Algeciras) would only really be justified if the railway was continued over or under the straight to Morocco. It needs to carry tens of millions of HSR passengers every year to make any economical sense.
The tunnel would only be continuous between Fuengirola and some point between Marbella and Estepona.
Besides, the priority there is a commuter train, not a HSL.
If any Alvia service could run on it... time will tell, but first get the commuter rail line built.

Forget about any HSL between Ronda and Algeciras: it wouldn't pass the environmental tests, too many natural parks over there.
The upgrade of the current classic line was complicated enough (and it hasn't been electrified yet!!).

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I think the age of new railway building in Spain is coming to an end within the next 4-5 years with the last major works being finished (full Galicia line and Basque Y). To be honest not that many gaps left. The biggest one is probably a line between Murcia and Algeciras. Maybe that one still has a chance although I wouldn't bet money on it.
The line between Murcia and Almeria is being (slowly) built, and it will probably be the last HSL, if the missing links Navalmoral de la Mata-Madrid on the Extremadura/Lisbon HSL, and Burgos-Vitoria on the Madrid-Hendaye HSL, don't finally get built, which is something we're not sure about.

Between Almeria and Algeciras, the rail link will be the classic line Almeria-Granada, then the HSL Granada-Antequera, and again the classic line between Antequera and Algeciras via Ronda.

No coastal line between Almeria and Malaga will be built any time soon, as right now the area is not enough populated, too mountainous and steep, it would be even more costly than Fuengirola-Estepona-Algeciras but with less than a quarter of its passengers.

We're starting to see the light at the end of the HSR network tunnel, and there are plenty of (necessary) things to do on the classic rail network...
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:17 PM   #3123
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I think two HSR lines would still be needed: one from Huesca to France and other from Sevilla to Portugal (I'm not considering the major project to link Portugal via Plasencia on this list, as it is a separate one).
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:20 PM   #3124
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Ugh, I meant Murcia-Almeria of course not Algeciras... Good to hear that is is being slowly built after all.

Full coastal HS line south of Almeria doesn't make sense, too sparsely populated and too expensive. Could there be some modest priced upgrade of Almeria-Granada classical line (eletrification etc) so that Alvia trains could continue to Granada?


About some other small gaps:

- what will happen between Leon and Pajares tunnel? New alignment or just conversion to standard gauge?
- When Basque Y opens will Burgos-Vitoria will just be converted to standard gauge or are there still plans for a new alignment. My understanding was that this segment is already relatively fast.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:23 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think two HSR lines would still be needed: one from Huesca to France and other from Sevilla to Portugal (I'm not considering the major project to link Portugal via Plasencia on this list, as it is a separate one).
Honestly I don't see how this would be a worthwhile investment. There will be already two HS connections to France on both coasts and there is no need for a third. Same with Portugal - one is enough if Portugues ever find money and dedication to build a fast line to Badajoz.

There is a need for more commuter rail in certain parts of the country, though. Some existing lines would also be worthwhile to upgrade and electrify.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #3126
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I think two HSR lines would still be needed: one from Huesca to France
No way.

Better connect decently Guarulhos, Osasco, the ABC and Cotia first, Sub. Or Santos. Or Sorocaba. Or the HSL Campinas-SP-Rio.
It would be millions of times more cost-effective than building a 40 km tunnel under some of Europe's least populated areas.
Besides, France doesn't think it is a priority in the slightest (and I think they're right).

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and other from Sevilla to Portugal (I'm not considering the major project to link Portugal via Plasencia on this list, as it is a separate one).
No. There is not enough population in the Algarve, only Faro has some population, and the exchanges between Andalusia and the Algarve are not important enough yet. In this case, a line just for tourists would not be justified.

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Ugh, I meant Murcia-Almeria of course not Algeciras... Good to hear that is is being slowly built after all.
They've just authorized the works of another small section.
Not much, really, but given the economic situation and the burden of lines under construction, it's better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Full coastal HS line south of Almeria doesn't make sense, too sparsely populated and too expensive.
Correct. Even classic rail doesn't make sense yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Could there be some modest priced upgrade of Almeria-Granada classical line (eletrification etc) so that Alvia trains could continue to Granada?
That's the thing. The Almeria line is electrified between Huéneja and Almeria, so class S-730 trains would be needed for that route... or the electrification of Granada-Huéneja. A class S-730 did some tests there, some time ago. Nothing happened though.


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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
About some other small gaps:

- what will happen between Leon and Pajares tunnel? New alignment or just conversion to standard gauge?
Double gauge. Anyway, the Campomanes landslip is complicating things, much more than the tunnel problem, which is solved. That line is doomed, I tell you...

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- When Basque Y opens will Burgos-Vitoria will just be converted to standard gauge or are there still plans for a new alignment. My understanding was that this segment is already relatively fast.
Double gauge as well. And maybe later, if the Basque get really angry, a full HSL. But later (understand "tomorrow" ).

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Honestly I don't see how this would be a worthwhile investment. There will be already two HS connections to France on both coasts and there is no need for a third. Same with Portugal - one is enough if Portugues ever find money and dedication to build a fast line to Badajoz.

There is a need for more commuter rail in certain parts of the country, though. Some existing lines would also be worthwhile to upgrade and electrify.
Indeed!!!
It's alright to have more AVEs, but commuter rail is being neglected, and some areas really do need improvements and extensions (Madrid and Barcelona the first, but not the only ones. But that's for another thread...).
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Old February 11th, 2015, 10:52 PM   #3127
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Anyone knows what is the maximum number of passengers in a max length AVE train (let's say Barcelona-Madrid)? Surprisingly not that easy to find this information...
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Old February 11th, 2015, 10:57 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
N
Double gauge. Anyway, the Campomanes landslip is complicating things, much more than the tunnel problem, which is solved. That line is doomed, I tell you...
]
It is? So no more water flowing in at whatever very high rate it was in one of the tunnels? What is this new problem?

It's the fourth longest railway tunnel in Europe (already counting GBT) whenever is it finally open
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Old February 11th, 2015, 11:04 PM   #3129
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I still think a Tarbes (Lourdes) - Huesca HSL, combined with improvements from Toulouse on French side, could open up the Mid-Pyrenees to more development. It is a rather isolated area as continental Europe goes: too far from major airports, not the kind of place easy to visit from Madrid or Paris on a 2-day trip. With HSL, there could be a boom in ski resort construction, and similar projects to boost the economy with real estate / leisure / tourism enterprises.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:12 AM   #3130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Anyone knows what is the maximum number of passengers in a max length AVE train (let's say Barcelona-Madrid)? Surprisingly not that easy to find this information...
I think it was some 418 people in the case of class S-103 trains, but I may be wrong.
Gusiluz knows, though, let's wait for him to turn up.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It is? So no more water flowing in at whatever very high rate it was in one of the tunnels? What is this new problem?

It's the fourth longest railway tunnel in Europe (already counting GBT) whenever is it finally open
The Campomanes landslip is not a new problem, it started out at about the same time as the Pajares tunnel problems (and no, no more water...), and in fact it's more serious. The solution for that is technically very complicated (=not cheap).

It's just that the media made a fuss about the Pajares tunnel water problem, because that was easier to sell than the Campomanes landslip.

And no, the Pajares tunnels can't open without the Campomanes thing solved.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I still think a Tarbes (Lourdes) - Huesca HSL, combined with improvements from Toulouse on French side, could open up the Mid-Pyrenees to more development. It is a rather isolated area as continental Europe goes: too far from major airports, not the kind of place easy to visit from Madrid or Paris on a 2-day trip. With HSL, there could be a boom in ski resort construction, and similar projects to boost the economy with real estate / leisure / tourism enterprises.
The ski happens in the Alps, Sub, not in the Pyrenees.
Only the Spaniards ski in the Pyrenees, the French (and the rest of the Europeans) go to the Alps, even from Toulouse.

I get your point of view, though, but that can't be a priority for France or Spain, given the economic situation.

So it will be either via Perpignan or Hendaye. There can't be any more options for now.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #3131
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Anyway, Spain-related threads will be sad in a few years. Major construction of railways and highways is winding down. Even after the worst of crisis has passed, there just are not many new projects on the pipeline to start construction after 2018 or so. Then, instead of high speed trains or major highways we will have only subway, lame commuter trains or tram projects dominating transportation infrastructure.

Construction of new airports has already stopped altogether in Spain.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:23 AM   #3132
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All the major things will have been built for the next 2-3 generations, why would that be sad?

Small improvements and upgrades will always be necessary, but one can't go on building stuff forever. Even Chinese will be finished in a not too distant future.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:24 AM   #3133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Anyway, Spain-related threads will be sad in a few years. Major construction of railways and highways is winding down. Even after the worst of crisis has passed, there just are not many new projects on the pipeline to start construction after 2018 or so. Then, instead of high speed trains or major highways we will have only subway, lame commuter trains or tram projects dominating transportation infrastructure.
And is it someone from Sâo Paulo telling me about urban rail being LAME?
You deserve to be sued.

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Construction of new airports has already stopped altogether in Spain.
...thank the Lord it stopped!!
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:26 AM   #3134
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Plus if the economic situation is really good some more "fancy" projects will go on. We still have major railway building in Switzerland despite the network already being the densest (or close to it) in Europe.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:27 AM   #3135
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Here is my issue: construction costs in Spain are the lowest in Europe, on average, when it comes to transportation infrastructure. Nowhere in the continent is high-speed rail built so cheaply as here, not even in countries with favorable terrain like Netherlands or Sweden.

Therefore, it makes sense to build far more HSR in Spain, at those costs. The difference in costs is even more pronounced for highways outside city built-up areas, which are extremely cheap in Spain compared even to Portugal or Poland.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:36 AM   #3136
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Cheaper than elsewhere doesn't mean for free nor is maintenance going to be for free.

To have a simple analogy let's say I have four pairs of shoes. To buy more would be wasteful even if every next pair cost only 20 euros.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 12:47 AM   #3137
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Yeah, thanks for the compliments, but there are too many words for my poor English

Madrid-Barcelona is done with Alstom S-100 and Talgo S-112, but the bulk is with Siemens S-103, that circulating double in theory are 806 seats, although in reality there are only 798 for sale.

Surprised time 90 minutes to Sevilla-Granada (229 km/h), good view !, but it is the time announced by the ministry in the media. I think it will be closer to two hours (172 km/h). If we count today's travelers Sevilla-Malaga (0,3 M) and Sevilla-Granada, not interested in doing a bypass to avoid entering Córdoba; they have announced, but we do not think so.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 01:24 AM   #3138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I think the age of new railway building in Spain is coming to an end within the next 4-5 years with the last major works being finished (full Galicia line and Basque Y). To be honest not that many gaps left. The biggest one is probably a line between Murcia and Algeciras. Maybe that one still has a chance although I wouldn't bet money on it.
Think in corner to corner (not only departing from Madrid) and you'll find someone else more
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Old February 12th, 2015, 01:35 AM   #3139
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Plus if the economic situation is really good some more "fancy" projects will go on. We still have major railway building in Switzerland despite the network already being the densest (or close to it) in Europe.
Beyond Murcia-Almeria, which is the last that is actually being planned and won't be halted, I can only see these three going ahead someday:

-Burgos-Miranda de Ebro-Vitoria (will be built if the Basque get angry and there's a bit of money to spare, Bilbao's rail connections are rather horrendous).

-Navalmoral de la Mata-Madrid (either via Toledo or not, theoretical connection point with HSL Madrid-Seville at Pantoja if not going via Toledo).
It will go ahead if the Portuguese finish their thing (the small one, not the big HSL thing) and there is an increase in passengers.

-Saragossa-Tudela-Pamplona-Vitoria (Ebro Corridor, in the mid-term the Basque, the Navarrese, the Riojanos, the Aragonese, the Valencians, and the Catalans will make quite a bit of a racket with this one).


Beyond all this, I can only see things like upgrading the connection of the North Atlantic coastal corridor between Bilbao and Ferrol via Santander and Oviedo.

The rest will be just upgrades of classic lines, commuter rail, and so on (I hope...).
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Old February 12th, 2015, 01:40 AM   #3140
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Is there a map of the current network of high speed rails in España?
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