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Old February 12th, 2015, 01:45 AM   #3141
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From Wikipedia:




The same page has another map, but that one is not entirely correct.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 01:57 AM   #3142
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alserrod is right, the high speed lines construction in Spain is following the motorways construction schema.... that is... let's make it first radial as it's the best cost-effective solution and then mesh it.

The HSL radial network will be finnished in the medium term getting to be the core long distance railway network including the most important transversal links (the mediterranean corridor is starting to get some attention again) and IMHO in the long term we will see some upgrades in the conventional network involving the progressive conversion of gauge allowing high speed trains to make some transversal routes between different high speed lines with a small time penalty... that conversion at some point might be complete (including most of the commuter lines).
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Old February 12th, 2015, 11:47 AM   #3143
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About services...

let's pay attention that in Madrid both stations have no still HSL among them

all point-to-point connections are HSL

And, apart of Madrid-XX XX-Madrid there are some other ones daily connections, no passing via Madrid

Sevilla-Valencia, once per day
Barcelona-Sevilla, twice
Barcelona-Malaga, twice
Zaragoza-Sevilla, once

and in peak days an Alicante-Sevilla (both trains from Alicante and from Valencia can shuttle in five minutes to Malaga. A relative did it quite easy)


And we have some trains that use partially HSL

Madrid-Pamplona (via Calatayud)
Madrid-Logroño (via Calatayud)
Madrid-Castellon (via Valencia)
Madrid-Granada (via Antequera. Jaen and Almería remains on classic line)
Madrid-Algeciras
Madrid-Cadiz
Madrid-Huelva
Madrid-somewhere in the north or northeast. The list is quite full, from Vigo to Irun, all going via Segovia

and from Barcelona there are some trains that use HSL Barcelona-Zaragoza and later classic line. This is to go to Basque country (Bilbao, Irun), Valladolid (shuttle to Salamanca), Gijon and Galicia (they use the Orense-La Coruña HSL), and in peak dates an additional to Ponferrada only


Finally, Malaga-Cordoba-Sevilla, Madrid-Toledo and Barcelona-several destinations in France (Marseille come from Madrid) and some extra trains within the HSL.

I think I do not miss anyone
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Old February 12th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #3144
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Beyond Murcia-Almeria, which is the last that is actually being planned and won't be halted, I can only see these three going ahead someday:

-Burgos-Miranda de Ebro-Vitoria (will be built if the Basque get angry and there's a bit of money to spare, Bilbao's rail connections are rather horrendous).

-Navalmoral de la Mata-Madrid (either via Toledo or not, theoretical connection point with HSL Madrid-Seville at Pantoja if not going via Toledo).
It will go ahead if the Portuguese finish their thing (the small one, not the big HSL thing) and there is an increase in passengers.

-Saragossa-Tudela-Pamplona-Vitoria (Ebro Corridor, in the mid-term the Basque, the Navarrese, the Riojanos, the Aragonese, the Valencians, and the Catalans will make quite a bit of a racket with this one).


Beyond all this, I can only see things like upgrading the connection of the North Atlantic coastal corridor between Bilbao and Ferrol via Santander and Oviedo.

The rest will be just upgrades of classic lines, commuter rail, and so on (I hope...).
Some other things I can think off just by looking at the map and beyond what has already been started even if frozen now:

- If Barcelona-Madrid become saturated it might make sense to straighten the line by going from Barcelona straight to Zaragoza avoiding the southern loop towards Taragona.

- Full new line from Pola de Lena to Gijon

- Almeria-Granada. That would complete Barcelona-Seville coastal route, not fast than via Madrid but there are many intermediate points.

- a connecting line from Toledo straight to Madrid-Valencia line avoiding the capital

- If the system is particularly popular there will be a need for more tracks or even tunnels in the immediate Madrid area. Particularly to the South as I count six distinct destinations (only 4 to the north and there is another station)

As far as classical lines I see Murcia-Cartagena among the top candidates for electrification and perhaps also double tracking. In any case why is there such a tiny amount of trains on that line? I'd expect a standard commuter train frequency of twice an hour.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:01 PM   #3145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Some other things I can think off just by looking at the map and beyond what has already been started even if frozen now:

- If Barcelona-Madrid become saturated it might make sense to straighten the line by going from Barcelona straight to Zaragoza avoiding the southern loop towards Taragona.
I don't think we'll ever see that kind of saturation, but the alternative would be building a direct Barcelona - Lleida line. Between Lleida and Zaragoza the current alignment is the shortest possible. Therefore the best option would be to add two tracks more to the current HSL. However, I don't think it's ever going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- Full new line from Pola de Lena to Gijon
It was planned, but it would cost millions just to save 10 or 15 minutes between Pola de Lena and Oviedo. Between Oviedo and Gijón the classic line can be upgraded, no need to build HSR there.

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- Almeria-Granada. That would complete Barcelona-Seville coastal route, not fast than via Madrid but there are many intermediate points.
It would be really really expensive. Money is better spent electrifying the classic line in order to improve the current services between Almería and Granada. That part of the country is sparsely populated, so there is no extreme need to build that HSR connected once Murcia - Almería HSR opens.

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- a connecting line from Toledo straight to Madrid-Valencia line avoiding the capital
It is already possible to do so, no need to build a new line. If there was enough demand, a train coming from Toledo could use the Yeles bypass to reach the Valencia line. It is what Sevilla - Valencia services do everyday.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- If the system is particularly popular there will be a need for more tracks or even tunnels in the immediate Madrid area. Particularly to the South as I count six distinct destinations (only 4 to the north and there is another station)
Well, let's see how the new Chamartín - Atocha tunnel works when it's open. The immediate need is to build the underground part of Atocha station in order to allow through trains to stop there. Otherwise passengers from those through services won't be able to board or alight at Atocha, only at Chamartín, and therefore most services coming from the South or the East of Spain won't become through trains to the North, which is a pity.

Besides, it is also necessary to build in a short-term the connection between the Northeast HSL and the Madrid tunnel, otherwise it can only be used by trains serving the South and East of Spain.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
As far as classical lines I see Murcia-Cartagena among the top candidates for electrification and perhaps also double tracking. In any case why is there such a tiny amount of trains on that line? I'd expect a standard commuter train frequency of twice an hour.
You're absolutely right. The situation of railway in Southeastern Spain is horrible. It's now starting to improve, but only because of the construction of HSR. Even the improvement of the classic line Alicante - Murcia depends on the construction of HSR, and it is not clear whether there will be a short-term upgrade of commuter rail there. It's a mess.

Regarding Murcia - Cartagena, the line needs to be at least electrified. There were plans to build HSR, but they were shelved, so probably double gauge will be installed on the classical line, together with the electrification. Double tracking is not currently planned. The saddest thing is that they're planning to relocate Cartagena station further from the city center; politicians are sometimes stupid.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:23 PM   #3146
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I don't think we'll ever see that kind of saturation, but the alternative would be building a direct Barcelona - Lleida line. Between Lleida and Zaragoza the current alignment is the shortest possible. Therefore the best option would be to add two tracks more to the current HSL. However, I don't think it's ever going to happen.
That's exactly what I was proposing. In this manner Madrid bound trains would be completely separated from the coastal service.


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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It was planned, but it would cost millions just to save 10 or 15 minutes between Pola de Lena and Oviedo. Between Oviedo and Gijón the classic line can be upgraded, no need to build HSR there.
Sure, none of what I wrote are real priorities but it would be nice not only for those 10 min but also for capacity.


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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It would be really really expensive. Money is better spent electrifying the classic line in order to improve the current services between Almería and Granada. That part of the country is sparsely populated, so there is no extreme need to build that HSR connected once Murcia - Almería HSR opens.
You are right, this one more from a dream land...


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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It is already possible to do so, no need to build a new line. If there was enough demand, a train coming from Toledo could use the Yeles bypass to reach the Valencia line. It is what Sevilla - Valencia services do everyday.
OK, wasn't apparent from my map...


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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Regarding Murcia - Cartagena, the line needs to be at least electrified. There were plans to build HSR, but they were shelved, so probably double gauge will be installed on the classical line, together with the electrification. Double tracking is not currently planned. The saddest thing is that they're planning to relocate Cartagena station further from the city center; politicians are sometimes stupid.
One hopes that money is somehow lacking for that one... Double track at least partially is needed to ensure commuter train like frequencies. I don't know whether Murcia or Cartagena has more economic opportunities, but whatever the answer there is bound to be some difference and thus people living in one of them and working in another. It's only 50 km and electrification would save up to 10 min on the current travel time.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:37 PM   #3147
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HSL Madrid-Badajoz-Lisbon. viaduct over the Tajo river.

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Adif ha subido un impresionante vídeo de las obras del viaducto del Rio Tajo

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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:49 PM   #3148
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That's exactly what I was proposing. In this manner Madrid bound trains would be completely separated from the coastal service.
Understood, so there would be no need to add tracks between Lleida and Zaragoza. The probable direct route to Lleida would diverge from the current one near Martorell (that's the place where A-2 motorway diverges from the coastal Ap-7 motorway), so between Barcelona and Martorell there would be no new alignment but simply two more tracks should be added.

However, there is physically no space at all to add more tracks in the last 10 km or so before Barcelona-Sants station. Check it on Google Maps, the HSL had to be built almost totally underground between El Prat de Llobregat and Barcelona as it is a densely populated area. If more tracks were to be added, they should also be underground. And honestly, money would be better spent on new tracks for commuter rail than on doubling the capacity of the HSL.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 09:59 PM   #3149
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Understood, so there would be no need to add tracks between Lleida and Zaragoza. The probable direct route to Lleida would diverge from the current one near Martorell (that's the place where A-2 motorway diverges from the coastal Ap-7 motorway), so between Barcelona and Martorell there would be no new alignment but simply two more tracks should be added.

However, there is physically no space at all to add more tracks in the last 10 km or so before Barcelona-Sants station. Check it on Google Maps, the HSL had to be built almost totally underground between El Prat de Llobregat and Barcelona as it is a densely populated area. If more tracks were to be added, they should also be underground. And honestly, money would be better spent on new tracks for commuter rail than on doubling the capacity of the HSL.





It was first proposed plan (non-stop Lerida-Barcelona) and changed because Catalan government (Mr. Pujol requirements indeed). This is, having a call at Tarragona and it wasn't possible to make nearer than Camp de Tarragona.

However, it is not so much extra time.

and... the "easiest connection Lerida-Barcelona is paralel to AP-2 and not to A-2. A-2 motorway is a little shortest but it will be quite expensive. First plan was to have paralel to AP-2+AP-7 because it will be not so expensive and maybe just two additional minutes (or maybe the same time due to no speed restrictions)

This is... we are talking about if it wonders or doesn't a by pass of Camp de Tarragona through AP-2 way.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:00 PM   #3150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
However, there is physically no space at all to add more tracks in the last 10 km or so before Barcelona-Sants station. Check it on Google Maps, the HSL had to be built almost totally underground between El Prat de Llobregat and Barcelona as it is a densely populated area. If more tracks were to be added, they should also be underground. And honestly, money would be better spent on new tracks for commuter rail than on doubling the capacity of the HSL.
Right, but we are talking here about a more distant future. After all at the moment there is still enough capacity in the current line. This line is probably the most profitable in all Spain so if full capacity is ever reached doing something would be a business decision as well.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:12 PM   #3151
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From Bilbao to La Coruña there are too many kilometres and many population

Palencia-Santander seems to be forgotten but should be considered when possible

Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro (Portuguese border) should be considered too in addition to Madrid-Lisbon

Toledo doesn't need a bypass at all (and a Toledo-Valencia would be possible with the bypass) but a Yeles station will be fine. Thus, some passengers could get off and get on there to make a Toledo-Ciudad Real without extra trains or rails, the same one and few investments

More...
Pedrola-Castejon de Ebro is the second classic most busy line without a project going on. The project to link the Atlantic and Mediterranean should be up again



The next steps would be only upgrading or maybe managing. I remember once making a Madrid-Alcazar journey with a Madrid-Badajoz train (via Ciudad Real). It took really longer and I calculated that if people would take HSL until Puertollano and will wait for THAT train would pay only three extra euro (with those fares) and would save THREE hours in the journey.

(thanks to God, nowadays it is compulsory to do it. The trains departs/ends in Puertollano but ten years later)


There are some more lines to build... obviously not all of them at the same time and obviously focusing in thinking people to use public transport to make them having sense
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:19 PM   #3152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Some other things I can think off just by looking at the map and beyond what has already been started even if frozen now:

- If Barcelona-Madrid become saturated it might make sense to straighten the line by going from Barcelona straight to Zaragoza avoiding the southern loop towards Taragona.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I don't think we'll ever see that kind of saturation, but the alternative would be building a direct Barcelona - Lleida line. Between Lleida and Zaragoza the current alignment is the shortest possible. Therefore the best option would be to add two tracks more to the current HSL. However, I don't think it's ever going to happen.
It's the busiest section of HSL in Spain, and will get busier once the connection between Camp de Tarragona on the HSL and Vandellos on the Valencia main line is built.

When the Valencia main line will be changed of gauge, then we could talk about international services (Valencia-Marseille or Valencia-Toulouse are the easiest for year-long services, but I still would not discard extra services for summer holiday peaks, we have to remember that Nîmes-Montpellier is rather advanced).

But all in all, the line won't get saturated yet.

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That's exactly what I was proposing. In this manner Madrid bound trains would be completely separated from the coastal service.
There's no need for that yet. Besides, Camp de Tarragona station generates a number of passengers that is far from negligible.
In fact, Camp de Tarragona, Lleida and Saragossa passengers are punished as there sometimes aren't enough seats available.

=================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- Full new line from Pola de Lena to Gijon
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It was planned, but it would cost millions just to save 10 or 15 minutes between Pola de Lena and Oviedo. Between Oviedo and Gijón the classic line can be upgraded, no need to build HSR there.
Too expensive for too little gain.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Sure, none of what I wrote are real priorities but it would be nice not only for those 10 min but also for capacity.
There's no need for capacity there, at all. One can improve the signalling and problem solved.

=================================================

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- Almeria-Granada. That would complete Barcelona-Seville coastal route, not fast than via Madrid but there are many intermediate points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It would be really really expensive. Money is better spent electrifying the classic line in order to improve the current services between Almería and Granada. That part of the country is sparsely populated, so there is no extreme need to build that HSR connected once Murcia - Almería HSR opens.
Like I said, the only thing that is envisaged is the electrification of Granada-Huéneja and the upgrade of the current Huéneja-Almeria electrification which is in rather bad state.

A HSL between Almeria and Granada would be tremendously expensive, and would involve massive tunneling (Guadarrama or Pajares-style... if not worse).

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You are right, this one more from a dream land...
Indeed. Anything west or northwest from Almeria is the rooftop of the Iberian Peninsula. That means not cheap.

=================================================

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- a connecting line from Toledo straight to Madrid-Valencia line avoiding the capital
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
It is already possible to do so, no need to build a new line. If there was enough demand, a train coming from Toledo could use the Yeles bypass to reach the Valencia line. It is what Sevilla - Valencia services do everyday.
Do you think that Toledo can generate any significant demand with any Spanish city, Madrid excepted? I think that Toledo can only generate an important number of passengers if directly connected to the Extremadura/Portugal HSL -that is, if that ever gets built.

=================================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
- If the system is particularly popular there will be a need for more tracks or even tunnels in the immediate Madrid area. Particularly to the South as I count six distinct destinations (only 4 to the north and there is another station)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Well, let's see how the new Chamartín - Atocha tunnel works when it's open. The immediate need is to build the underground part of Atocha station in order to allow through trains to stop there. Otherwise passengers from those through services won't be able to board or alight at Atocha, only at Chamartín, and therefore most services coming from the South or the East of Spain won't become through trains to the North, which is a pity.

Besides, it is also necessary to build in a short-term the connection between the Northeast HSL and the Madrid tunnel, otherwise it can only be used by trains serving the South and East of Spain.
It is not envisaged in the short or mid term. Alvia services between Barcelona and the Northwest run via Burgos. In the rest of cases, change trains at Madrid. NW Spain is much more Madrid-oriented, it doesn't have the same relationship with Barcelona than Andalusia does.

=================================================

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
As far as classical lines I see Murcia-Cartagena among the top candidates for electrification and perhaps also double tracking. In any case why is there such a tiny amount of trains on that line? I'd expect a standard commuter train frequency of twice an hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
You're absolutely right. The situation of railway in Southeastern Spain is horrible. It's now starting to improve, but only because of the construction of HSR. Even the improvement of the classic line Alicante - Murcia depends on the construction of HSR, and it is not clear whether there will be a short-term upgrade of commuter rail there. It's a mess.

Regarding Murcia - Cartagena, the line needs to be at least electrified. There were plans to build HSR, but they were shelved, so probably double gauge will be installed on the classical line, together with the electrification. Double tracking is not currently planned. The saddest thing is that they're planning to relocate Cartagena station further from the city center; politicians are sometimes stupid.
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
One hopes that money is somehow lacking for that one... Double track at least partially is needed to ensure commuter train like frequencies. I don't know whether Murcia or Cartagena has more economic opportunities, but whatever the answer there is bound to be some difference and thus people living in one of them and working in another. It's only 50 km and electrification would save up to 10 min on the current travel time.
Anything but a commuter rail service between Murcia and Cartagena is a waste of space (and in the gaps you could stuff some Alvias). Authorities take the Southeast for granted, when it's one of the most populated parts of the country. Upgrades are badly needed there.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:34 PM   #3153
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From Bilbao to La Coruña there are too many kilometres and many population
That won't be high-speed. It would be horrendously expensive, to build a HSL through there.
A series of upgrades of the current metric line involving gauge change and speed increases where possible should do.

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Palencia-Santander seems to be forgotten but should be considered when posible
Not cost-effective. Cantabria is not so densely populated.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro (Portuguese border) should be considered too in addition to Madrid-Lisbon
No. Just no. That's for freight, and freight doesn't need speed.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Toledo doesn't need a bypass at all
It does, actually. Toledo risks being skipped by railway once again, and in the 19th century it was bad enough. I'd say plug it to the Extremadura/Portugal line. That would be expensive, but worth it.

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(and a Toledo-Valencia would be possible with the bypass)
Nonsense. Toledo doesn't generate enough passengers to/from Valencia.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
but a Yeles station will be fine.
Nonsense. It would be in the middle of nowhere, and too close to both Madrid and Toledo.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Thus, some passengers could get off and get on there to make a Toledo-Ciudad Real without extra trains or rails, the same one and few investments
Rather build a chord to allow Toledo-Ciudad Real trains, so as Avant services Madrid-Toledo-Ciudad Real-Puertollano become possible (or even make some AVE Madrid-Seville call at Toledo, despite the compulsory reversal).

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
More...
Pedrola-Castejon de Ebro is the second classic most busy line without a project going on. The project to link the Atlantic and Mediterranean should be up again
Computer says "not yet".
Computer also says "Teruel-Valencia would be horrendously expensive and not cost-effective and a by-pass is being built at Camp de Tarragona".
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:45 PM   #3154
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Toledo probably doesn't generate enough traffic to destinations other than Madrid, but I meant that connector more as a relief for lines closer to Madrid enabling easier Sevilla-Valencia connection.

What we forgot in all this discussion is a new line from Vigo Urzaiz to Portuguese border. I think this cross-border connection does make sense since there is a cultural connection between Galicia and Portugal. I think a direct line from Ourense to Vigo was also in plans, maybe those ought to be revived at some stage.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 10:52 PM   #3155
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Toledo probably doesn't generate enough traffic to destinations other than Madrid, but I meant that connector more as a relief for lines closer to Madrid enabling easier Sevilla-Valencia connection.
I'm not getting it. Explain it again, please.

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What we forgot in all this discussion is a new line from Vigo Urzaiz to Portuguese border. I think this cross-border connection does make sense since there is a cultural connection between Galicia and Portugal.
The current line will be electrified and slightly upgraded on the Portuguese side (between Valença and Nine), and electrified between Valença and Guillarei. That alone would be a massive improvement.

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I think a direct line from Ourense to Vigo was also in plans, maybe those ought to be revived at some stage.
GOD, I HOPE NOT.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 11:01 PM   #3156
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I'm not getting it. Explain it again, please.
It might be just my mistake with maps... Where exactly do trains going from Sevilla to Valencia and bypassing Madrid leave Madrid-Sevilla line?


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The current line will be electrified and slightly upgraded on the Portuguese side (between Valença and Nine), and electrified between Valença and Guillarei. That alone would be a massive improvement.
Right, but the main issue is that the new Santiago-Vigo line and that going from Porto to Vigo do not end up in the same station. That at least ought to be rectified in the medium term.

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GOD, I HOPE NOT.
You think that was a particularly stupid idea? Why was it proposed in the first place? Just because money seemed unlimited?
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Old February 12th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #3157
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GOD, I HOPE NOT.
Alright, it is not necessary right now, but at least it would have more sense than the Cerdedo* bypass they are now planning... I mean, neither Ourense - Vigo nor Cerdedo should be a priority, but if someday they decide to build a new line to improve travel times between Ourense and Vigo, it should be a line connecting directly both cities, not a crappy solution that costs about the same but doesn't significantly reduce travel times.

*Cerdedo bypass is a project to build a new line between an intermediate point on the Ourense - Santiago HSL and the Atlantic HSL north of Pontevedra. It would be really expensive but the benefits for travel times to Vigo from Ourense would be ridiculous in comparison with the situation from March this year (using HSL Ourense - Santiago but bypassing the latter by means of a purposely built bypass line south of that city, and from then, Atlantic HSL until Vigo).
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Old February 12th, 2015, 11:25 PM   #3158
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It might be just my mistake with maps... Where exactly do trains going from Sevilla to Valencia and bypassing Madrid leave Madrid-Sevilla line?
You can check it on Google Maps, just search the town called Yeles. It's a few km north of the junction where Toledo line branches off the main HSL Madrid - Sevilla, and a few km south of the junction where the HSL to Valencia branches off the main line. Therefore, trains that serve Toledo have the possibility of going to Valencia without reversing. However, Toledo doesn't have enough demand or whatever to establish Toledo - Valencia, Toledo - Barcelona or Toledo - Alicante services (all of them are technically possible without calling at Madrid or without reversing).

The key issue is to extend the present Toledo HSR stub so as it becomes the beginning of Madrid - Badajoz HSL. It's pointless to build a new HSL 20 km north of Toledo, building a new junction with the Madrid - Sevilla at the town of Pantoja, when the benefits for both Toledo and the rest of cities the line will serve would be greater if the HSL directly served Toledo. For instance it would link Toledo with Talavera de la Reina, the most populated city in Toledo's province.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 11:30 PM   #3159
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You can check it on Google Maps, just search the town called Yeles. It's a few km north of the junction where Toledo line branches off the main HSL Madrid - Sevilla, and a few km south of the junction where the HSL to Valencia branches off the main line. Therefore, trains that serve Toledo have the possibility of going to Valencia without reversing. However, Toledo doesn't have enough demand or whatever to establish Toledo - Valencia, Toledo - Barcelona or Toledo - Alicante services (all of them are technically possible without calling at Madrid or without reversing).
Clear now

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The key issue is to extend the present Toledo HSR stub so as it becomes the beginning of Madrid - Badajoz HSL. It's pointless to build a new HSL 20 km north of Toledo, building a new junction with the Madrid - Sevilla at the town of Pantoja, when the benefits for both Toledo and the rest of cities the line will serve would be greater if the HSL directly served Toledo. For instance it would link Toledo with Talavera de la Reina, the most populated city in Toledo's province.
This is so obviously correct that one really hopes it happens that way...
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Old February 13th, 2015, 04:59 AM   #3160
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Right, but the main issue is that the new Santiago-Vigo line and that going from Porto to Vigo do not end up in the same station. That at least ought to be rectified in the medium term.
To hell with that. They wanted a billion euro station at the cost of isolating themselves from the classic main line and tearing apart any possibility of commuter trains in a place that would be fit for that? Ok. Alright. They made us pay for that, so now they must cope with it.

You can design a better rail network without really behaving like a demented Pharaoh.

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You think that was a particularly stupid idea?
Of course I do. They'll have the connection via Pontevedra. Why would they want another one? Vigo is not any really big city like Barcelona, Seville or Valencia.

But:

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Why was it proposed in the first place? Just because money seemed unlimited?
No, politicians don't even think about that.
They just made those proposals because "the neighbour has it too, or so it seems to me".
They are that mediocre type of thing.

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Alright, it is not necessary right now, but at least it would have more sense than the Cerdedo* bypass they are now planning... I mean, neither Ourense - Vigo nor Cerdedo should be a priority, but if someday they decide to build a new line to improve travel times between Ourense and Vigo, it should be a line connecting directly both cities, not a crappy solution that costs about the same but doesn't significantly reduce travel times.
But that wouldn't be cheap at all.

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The key issue is to extend the present Toledo HSR stub so as it becomes the beginning of Madrid - Badajoz HSL. It's pointless to build a new HSL 20 km north of Toledo, building a new junction with the Madrid - Sevilla at the town of Pantoja, when the benefits for both Toledo and the rest of cities the line will serve would be greater if the HSL directly served Toledo. For instance it would link Toledo with Talavera de la Reina, the most populated city in Toledo's province.
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This is so obviously correct that one really hopes it happens that way...
There is one problem in the Toledo thing: archaeology.
That would force any extension of the Toledo HSL towards Talavera to include at long, expensive tunnel (oh, nothing like the Guadarrama or Pajares tunnels, or even the Basque Y, but for some reason, politicians don't like spending money in Southeastern Spain or anything remotely related to Extremadura).

Toledo was always on a branch line, so both politicians and technicians don't even question themselves about it.

Current plans do not include the possibility of Toledo being anything else than the end of a short branch line.
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