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Old June 16th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #3221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Only the Sevilla-Granada line will be missing in the region then.
Construction started a decade ago or so on Sevilla - Antequera HSL, but only between Marchena and Antequera. The platform was finished a few years ago but in the short-term there are no plans to install tracks and put it into service. The section between Sevilla and Marchena was never started and included an underground station beneath Sevilla's airport.

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Will they extend the HSL from Granada to Almeria, or operate gauge-change services to Almeria (say, from Sevilla or Malaga), or none of that?
Nothing will happen there in the short-term. There were plans to extend the HSL from Granada to Almería, but they were really really expensive for the amount of traffic the would carry; moreover there's another HSL under construction between Murcia and Almería, and when finished it will be the main link from Madrid to Almería.
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Old June 16th, 2015, 11:00 PM   #3222
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Construction started a decade ago or so on Sevilla - Antequera HSL, but only between Marchena and Antequera. The platform was finished a few years ago but in the short-term there are no plans to install tracks and put it into service. The section between Sevilla and Marchena was never started and included an underground station beneath Sevilla's airport.
That's probably too expensive and not really needed, but it might be significantly cheaper to continue the line across an open countryside to join Seville-Cordoba HSL sightly north of Seville city borders. I measure direct line distance of only ca 50 km.


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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Nothing will happen there in the short-term. There were plans to extend the HSL from Granada to Almería, but they were really really expensive for the amount of traffic the would carry; moreover there's another HSL under construction between Murcia and Almería, and when finished it will be the main link from Madrid to Almería.
A new HSL is not feasible economically, but upgrading and electrification would be nice....

Actually before the current closure to which destinations it was possible to take a direct train (at least once a day) from Granada?
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Old June 16th, 2015, 11:05 PM   #3223
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Will they extend the HSL from Granada to Almeria, or operate gauge-change services to Almeria (say, from Sevilla or Malaga), or none of that?
No.

It is suppossed that (oneeee day...), Almeria will link to Murcia and therefore, with the rest of network.

It will be easier to make an Almeria-Barcelona rather than an Almeria-Seville
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Old June 16th, 2015, 11:16 PM   #3224
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What about a coastal HSL Malaga-Motril-Almeria? That would link Murica and Andalusia, which have no good rail connections whatsoever despite being populated areas.

Will they extend the HSL from Alicante to Benidorm sometime in the future? Benidorm is dense, and has a huge touristic appeal, so it could be useful to have HSL there...
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Old June 16th, 2015, 11:19 PM   #3225
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about a coastal HSL Malaga-Motril-Almeria? That would link Murica and Andalusia, which have no good rail connections whatsoever despite being populated areas.
There is a project of Mediterranean corridor that would link Algeciras with Figueres-Vilafant. It is considered more for freight but can be used for passengers too.

The problem is... that area is not easy to build over.

The highest peak in the peninsula is just there, near the coast and I do not know if it would be cheaper to build through Granada or through the coast
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Old June 17th, 2015, 12:46 AM   #3226
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Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
I was there five years ago. Took a train from Antequerra HSL to Granada, it
came from the high-speed line under electric traction, then went through the
"cambiador", then diesel traction to Granada. Was nice...

Two days later we went back to Granada station to take a train to Algeciras.
Old DMU, and limited to Ronda because of works on the line - from there we
took a bus. Arriving at Algeciras, noticed that not much work were taking
place... Has that line been modernized finally, and will Granada-Algeciras
continue to run once the line to Granada is upgraded ?
The line Bobadilla-Algeciras is being upgraded, but don't expect any HSL any time soon.
That would be too expensive and would not pass the environmental tests (the current line crosses a narrow valley through a natural park).

There was this plan to electrify it, but nothing has happened yet.

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Although why wasn't there an Alvia service already on HSL till Antequera and then on the classical line? It couldn't have been that much longer than driving. No connections between both lines?
It is longer than driving or taking the bus. The classic line between Antequera-Santa Ana and Granada is quite bendy between Antequera-Ciudad and Loja.

With the new HSL, travel times will finally be competitive.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Only the Sevilla-Granada line will be missing in the region then.
I wouldn't put my money on it. It looks like it will be abandoned. That HSL was started by the Andalusian regional government alone, and the Ministry doesn't want to carry on with it, so it looks like we'll have yet another ghost never-opened line. Anyway, things could change, particularly in case the economy went better and better. But now it seems unlikely. Anyway, no official news whatsoever, so...

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Among other reasons, I think the following are the most important ones for not having such service:

Málaga - Granada is not a long distance route but a regional one. Alvia services are operated with dual gauge trains (mostly class 120, 130 and 730 trains), which are designed for long distance services, not for regional ones.

Moreover, the classic line between Antequera and Granada is not electrified, and therefore only class 730 trains (hybrid: electric + diesel) could be used in a hypothetic Málaga - Antequera - Granada service. However, there are very few of these trains, even Madrid - Granada and Madrid - Algeciras services are Altaria instead of Alvia, and when changing gauge they also change locomotive (the whole process in Antequera takes more than 20 minutes!).

And finally, those hypothetic services would have to reverse in Antequera Santa Ana HSR station in order to access the classic line towards Granada, adding more extra minutes to the trip.

To sum up: the line is not electrified, there is no direct connection between lines and, most important, the available material would need almost 30 minutes to reverse and change gauge
Nah, it's just because it's not competitive with the car or bus, and because there never ever was a direct train between the two cities.

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Will they extend the HSL from Granada to Almeria, or operate gauge-change services to Almeria (say, from Sevilla or Malaga), or none of that?
None of that.
Services from Madrid to Almeria will be via Cuenca-Albacete-Elche-Murcia-Lorca once the Murcia-Almeria HSL opens.
Up till then, the current services (Talgo Madrid-Almeria via Alcazar de San Juan, Linares and Guadix) will continue to exist.

Maybe (only maybe) the line between Granada and Hueneja-Dólar could be electrified if they had the intention of running Barcelona-Valencia-Murcia-Almeria-Granada services, something we don't know about, now.

What seems clear is that the classic line between Moreda and Linares has a very dark future once the HSL between Murcia and Almeria opens. It could be closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
That's probably too expensive and not really needed, but it might be significantly cheaper to continue the line across an open countryside to join Seville-Cordoba HSL sightly north of Seville city borders. I measure direct line distance of only ca 50 km.
A chord is under planning at Almodóvar (where the Cordoba-Malaga HSL diverges from the Madrid-Seville HSL) to replace that Antequera-Seville line, it seems. But even that is not very clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
A new HSL is not feasible economically, but upgrading and electrification would be nice....

Actually before the current closure to which destinations it was possible to take a direct train (at least once a day) from Granada?
Regional/MD: Granada-Loja-Antequera Ciudad-Antequera Santa Ana-Bobadilla-all stations to Algeciras.

Regional/MD: Granada-Loja-Antequera Ciudad-Antequera Santa Ana-Pedrera-Osuna-Marchena-Dos Hermanas-Seville.

Altaria: Granada-Loja-Antequera Ciudad-Antequera Santa Ana-all stations? to Madrid on the HSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about a coastal HSL Malaga-Motril-Almeria? That would link Murica and Andalusia, which have no good rail connections whatsoever despite being populated areas.
Rather build it to Curitiba via Jundiaí and Francisco Morato.

No, seriously, the line would be FAR too expensive (constant tunnels) and the area is not enough populated yet.
It is much more needed to extend the current commuter rail line between Fuengirola and Algeciras via Mijas, Marbella, Estepona, La Línea (for Gibraltar), and San Roque, which is much more populated. And that will be costly enough!!

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Will they extend the HSL from Alicante to Benidorm sometime in the future? Benidorm is dense, and has a huge touristic appeal, so it could be useful to have HSL there...
There are plans for that, also for Torrevieja, but for now they're just plans, and they don't involve HSL, since these are seen as commuter rail lines mainly, only maybe Alvia running through these would-be lines.
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Last edited by 437.001; June 17th, 2015 at 12:53 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2015, 01:24 AM   #3227
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HS lines is a great progress, but it's not all about them. What Southern Spain is currently lacking is local train traffic. Although I suspect we are at least 100 years too late for most small towns...
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Old June 17th, 2015, 01:31 AM   #3228
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HS lines is a great progress, but it's not all about them. What Southern Spain is currently lacking is local train traffic. Although I suspect we are at least 100 years too late for most small towns...
Well... that doesn't quite belong here, but anyway... most of these local railway lines would not be useful anyway.
There have been many closures in Andalusia.
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Old June 17th, 2015, 01:36 AM   #3229
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Well... that doesn't quite belong here, but anyway... most of these local railway lines would not be useful anyway.
There have been many closures in Andalusia.
Sure, but some would be. Let me give one example in the other thread.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 04:33 PM   #3230
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In the context of Moroccan railways I was wondering how much a brand new HS rail line increases overall passenger numbers. Any of you know some relevant numbers from Spain? For example, what was the ridership between Madrid and Barcelona before there was any HSR built and what is it now? By how much was classical line ridership decreased? Also is the total rail+air ridership now significantly higher than before the line was started? There's got to be some induced demand, but the degree is unclear.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #3231
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
In the context of Moroccan railways I was wondering how much a brand new HS rail line increases overall passenger numbers. Any of you know some relevant numbers from Spain? For example, what was the ridership between Madrid and Barcelona before there was any HSR built and what is it now? By how much was classical line ridership decreased? Also is the total rail+air ridership now significantly higher than before the line was started? There's got to be some induced demand, but the degree is unclear.
Taken from Ferropedia. There will be some forumers who will give more and better details than me



In 2003 HSL arrives to Lerida. Time decreases from seven to five hours by train.
In 2006 arrives to Tarragona. I think it was a little more of four hours journey.

In early 2008 arrives to Barcelona and in 2h30 the journey can be done. Compare it with a plane (1h aprox of journey plus commuting from/to airport, plus going in advance when stations are in city centre)

In 2012 Renfe took new type of fares making some journeys terribly cheap (instead of empty trains with full fare only)

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Old June 27th, 2015, 07:37 PM   #3232
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Those are interesting graphs in addition to other things showing that partially finished line had only a marginal impact on air traffic. However these graphs don't say anything about absolute numbers. Also in case of rail do such graphs include only people who bought tickets for the entire route or also those only taking part of it? There are plenty of people doing that.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 07:56 PM   #3233
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Those are interesting graphs in addition to other things showing that partially finished line had only a marginal impact on air traffic. However these graphs don't say anything about absolute numbers. Also in case of rail do such graphs include only people who bought tickets for the entire route or also those only taking part of it? There are plenty of people doing that.
No, it doesn't say but... before HSL, Madrid-Barcelona flight link was one of the heaviest traffic air link in Europe (or could be the greatest). It was easy to see one plane of different companies every several minutes in rush hours.


Four hours is not competitive but 2h30m it is... from city centre to city centre. You can get a cab till station, get a train, use your mobile, portable or just breakfast and have a rest. No half an hour (or more) is compulsory before departing and after you have reached destination, you can get another cab or commuter (included in the price) or the metro.

I do not have numbers but one 400 passengers train every hour (and half an hour in peak hours) could may think about impact




Another example. Toledo. Located 82 km south from Madrid. There is only link to Madrid-Pta Atocha (and later you get the train you want). You can choose a car with a free and a tolled motorway to approach Madrid. And the bus obviously.

If your destination is not in Madrid centre it can worth the car... but having only 80.000 inhabitants they have 14 daily trains to Madrid. According to Renfe page, 33 minutes, according to forumers, about 28 minutes or so to reach Madrid.

Four out of those 14 daily trains are before 8:00
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Old June 27th, 2015, 09:27 PM   #3234
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the case of Toledo is interesting, the occupation is that high that for some trains you have to book some weeks in advance (just for commuting!).

Another solution is needed, in some countries you can travel standing even if it's a hst, why not on avants? Why not a new product with hs trains configured like commuting trains?
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Old June 27th, 2015, 09:52 PM   #3235
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Another example. Toledo. Located 82 km south from Madrid. There is only link to Madrid-Pta Atocha (and later you get the train you want). You can choose a car with a free and a tolled motorway to approach Madrid. And the bus obviously.

If your destination is not in Madrid centre it can worth the car... but having only 80.000 inhabitants they have 14 daily trains to Madrid. According to Renfe page, 33 minutes, according to forumers, about 28 minutes or so to reach Madrid.
Seventeen.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 09:58 PM   #3236
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Another thing which is kind of obvious, but I hadn't thought about it before. The exact location of a train station is a lot more important in small and medium sized cities. In large cities like Barcelona and Madrid it is less important because no matter where you put it chances are very high that metro will be needed anyway to reach the actual destination.
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Old June 27th, 2015, 11:52 PM   #3237
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yes and no, there is not a standard solution for any case, but in general, in big cities you have to locate the stations in core transportation hubs, and in really big cities even multiple stops might be dessirable to distribute the people flows.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 02:10 AM   #3238
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In essence, that's why the third Túnel de la risa is so facetious. It's a bit like HSR meeting Crossrail, knowing too well that a through station is necessary to provide for a true national network instead of stub-ends for northern and southern Spain respectively, but also knowing too well that surrendering the two termini for a completely new one (or giving up one in favor of the other) does quite some harm to the city structure and is therefore better to be avoided.

Therefore, projects like Túnel de la risa easily fit to a Crossrail-style logic even if it's for AVE instead of Cercanias. You somehow need to unload the passengers where they can easily advance into their desired part of the city. There is e.g. one thing I don't like about the city tunnel in Leipzig, it's got enough platform length for an ICE train at Main Station, but only at Main Station. Now you may easily dismiss me as a nostalgic for the old Bavarian Station, but whereas a second ICE-proof station at that site may have been rather odd, it could've been very handy to have it at Wilhelm-Leuschner-Platz at the southern edge of the ring where all trams stop that won't stop at Main Station.

In essence, that's why Berlin Central Station isn't the only station to get served with ICE trains. North-south ICE trains usually serve Gesundbrunnen (northern cross of the ring) and Südkreuz (southern, d'oh) was well. East-west is another affair entirely; most trains ending on the Stadtbahn in Berlin end at East Station after they served Central Station, but they used to serve Zoo station before and stopped after Central Station opened. People were supposed to be forced to descend at Central Station so that the "mall" inside it would get its customers and rents thereof will flow; love it or hate it, but this is also an excellent way to force the city of Berlin to create access to Central Station. They're still constructing their U5 extension and the tramway access has only recently been finished and don't get me started with Central Station's access to suburban rail. I may well imagine that Zoo station may get its ICE trains back when Central Station eventually got the desired accessibility.

For similar reasons, Paris will never scrap its termini for one central station. It may however one day build its own "tunnel of laughter" in order to relieve Gare de Nord and Gare de Lyon from its TGV trains and provide for a new access at (Place de la) République with its metro station. I no longer remember where I read of this idea, but it sounds sensible. There's no such idea in order to relieve Gare de l'Est, maybe because Nord/Lyon is a relatively short stretch to tunnel whereas a tunnel from Est to Saint-Lazaire or Montparnasse would be way longer.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 11:23 AM   #3239
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In terms of absolute numbers of induced demand, these can be deduced from this table own data collection on FC Observatory, a study Aena and Renfe.


In this chart, the total demand for each runner appears one month before the opening, and until two years later. It can be seen that the line with fewer passengers was precisely induced Barcelona.


In Malaga he passed by traffic (in thousands) 1,100 train + plane in 2007 to 2,016 in 2008, were 1,939 in 2013.
In Valencia he passed by traffic (in thousands) 1,723 train + plane in 2010 to 2,305 in 2011, which were 2,109 in 2013.
In Alicante, opened in June 2013, and went from a traffic (in thousands) 1,073 train + plane in 2012 to 1,203 in 2013. The train % increased from 61.9 to 73.2

The Madrid-Toledo trip was announced for 29 minutes, they finally were 35 the 16/11/2005, was reduced to 30 on 31/05/2006 and are now 33 except AVCity services: 31.
.......................................
En cuanto a cifras absolutas sobre demanda inducida, éstas pueden deducirse de esta tabla de recopilación propia sobre datos del Observatorio del FC, Aena y algún estudio de Renfe.
En este gráfico aparece la demanda total de cada corredor un mes antes de la apertura, y hasta dos años después. Puede verse que la línea con menos pasajeros inducidos ha sido precísamente Barcelona.
En Málaga se pasó de un tráfico (en miles) tren+avión de 1.100 en 2007 a 2.016 en 2008, que fueron 1.939 en 2013.
En Valencia se pasó de un tráfico (en miles) tren+avión de 1.723 en 2010 a 2.305 en 2011, que fueron 2.109 en 2013.
En Alicante se inauguró en junio de 2013 y se pasó de un tráfico (en miles) tren+avión de 1.073 en 2012 a 1.203 en 2013. El % del tren pasó del 61,9 al 73,2.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 02:15 PM   #3240
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No.

It is suppossed that (oneeee day...), Almeria will link to Murcia and therefore, with the rest of network.
There is not even enough monnies to finish what is already under construction, forget about lines that are not even started.

Between Lorca and Almeria they need to build 150 km of completely new railway, the only thing built so far is a 7,5 km long tunnel in the middle of nowhere and it is probably never going to be connected to any railway. Only 180 million euros wasted

But hey, it's not like it is the first time time this happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enga%C3%B1a_Tunnel
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