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Old September 11th, 2015, 05:05 AM   #3321
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Yes, but the thing in question here is to get the trains full.
So, Northern Spain being less populated, the new services will all call at all the intermediate stops in this section.
The travel time will be cut by sufficient margin.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 07:17 AM   #3322
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Yes, but the thing in question here is to get the trains full.
So, Northern Spain being less populated,
Does AVE then need smaller trains now?
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Old September 11th, 2015, 08:59 PM   #3323
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imho the ideal would be double trains coming from the south throught Madrid and then splitting in two to serve two different cities (like the Galician Alvias from Madrid) but I doubt Renfe would like the idea because in the way back one train can delay the other one and this increases the risk of paying compensations for delays.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 09:13 PM   #3324
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imho the ideal would be double trains coming from the south throught Madrid and then splitting in two to serve two different cities (like the Galician Alvias from Madrid) but I doubt Renfe would like the idea because in the way back one train can delay the other one and this increases the risk of paying compensations for delays.
Where would trains be split? Chamartin?
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:00 PM   #3325
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They are quite small.
For Madrid-León HSL:

AVE: S-112 seats: 363
AVCity: S-114 seats: 236
Alvia S-130 seats: 298
Alvia Dual: S-730 seats: 263
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:25 PM   #3326
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Gusiluz means that probably only the Valladolid-Palencia-Leon HSL will open this year, while the others, that is:

-Madrid Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (without Madrid-Atocha underground platforms)

-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona (plus chord towards Lleida/Zaragoza)
About that Atocha-Chamartin connection - what will be the effect of it in the form it's going to open next year?

The same about that Mediterranean route connection. There is still a lot more construction ongoing between that section and Valencia, right? Still waiting for those Alvia trains between Barcelona and Murcia on a mixture of new and fully upgraded lines....
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Old September 12th, 2015, 09:37 PM   #3327
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Where would trains be split? Chamartin?
it might depend on the route, Chamartin only would make sense for sending one of the trains to the airport, but they can also split in Orense for going to Vigo/La Coruña (the Alvias already do this), Valladolid (Asturias/Cantabria/Basque Country), Palencia (Asturias/Cantabria), Vitoria (Bilbao/San Sebastián) or maybe even Atocha (Further North/Huesca).

Probably not all of these operations are possible or even make sense, but they are options that could be evaluated.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 10:49 PM   #3328
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About that Atocha-Chamartin connection - what will be the effect of it in the form it's going to open next year?
As it will open without the new underground part of Atocha station, the effects won't be as big as they could have been. Basically it will mean a considerable reduction of time (around one hour) for through trains which currently need to change gauge twice and reverse to cross Madrid. Moreover, as they will only call at Chamartín (currently they serve both Atocha and Chamartín stations), there will be time savings.

However, I don't think there will be a considerable increase in the number of trains that could use the new tunnel, at least for the moment, as the lack of underground through platforms at Atocha renders these potential services less attractive for users of the HSL to Sevilla, Toledo, Málaga, Alicante and Valencia. Of course there are passengers who would benefit from services calling at Chamartín, but I have the impression that establishing two different stations in Madrid as origin or destination for services to a given city would cause confusion among a certain number of users.

And for the moment there are only mid-term plans to build a connection between the new Atocha - Chamartín tunnel and the HSL Madrid - Barcelona.

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The same about that Mediterranean route connection. There is still a lot more construction ongoing between that section and Valencia, right? Still waiting for those Alvia trains between Barcelona and Murcia on a mixture of new and fully upgraded lines....
Currently the construction of the section between Vandellós and Camp de Tarragona station on the Madrid - Barcelona HSL is an advanced stage. Hopefully the opening of the whole section will take place early next year. Therefore, there will be Alvia trains using the HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona and then the upgraded classic line up to Castellón.

It's still a mystery what will happen south of Castellón in the short term. There are works to introduce standard gauge (through dual gauge) between Valencia and Castellón, but only Madrid - Castellón trains will benefit from that (as there is no gauge changer planned in Castellón). A potential change of gauge between Castellón and Tarragona is also projected, but nobody knows exactly how it will be implemented.

Anyway, between Valencia and Alicante there is an almost finished HSL (Valencia - La Encina), which will connect with the already in service HSL Madrid - Alicante in La Encina junction. There are plans to finished the said HSL, but I guess not before 2017 (being optimistic). Then there's the HSL Monforte del Cid (near Alicante) - Murcia, which is under construction and will open surely next year (although the Government still says it will open before the end of 2015 -which is almost impossible). The issue of gauge still remains unresolved, but now it seems there will be standard gauge (double track) between Monforte del Cid and San Isidro, and there will be a track in standard gauge and another in Iberian gauge between San Isidro and Murcia, as the HSL replaces the old classic line (the new HSL between these two stations will also be used by diesel commuter trains at least until the classic line between San Isidro and Alicante is electrified and changed to standard gauge).

The situation is still quite unclear and confusing, but I hope I've helped somehow...
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Old September 12th, 2015, 11:13 PM   #3329
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Thanks, it's as clear as I guess it could be at this stage.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 11:25 PM   #3330
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Although what's the reason for de-prioritising completion of Alicante-Valencia HSL? Just politics or something more substantial?
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Old September 13th, 2015, 12:20 AM   #3331
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Quote:
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Although what's the reason for de-prioritising completion of Alicante-Valencia HSL? Just politics or something more substantial?
Actually the situation is the opposite. After the tracks were laid in 2008-2010 between Valencia and Xàtiva, the line was put on hold. Now electrification and signaling is pending.

Between Xàtiva and La Encina, the current classic line was upgraded in the 90s (it was actually a new layout), so its gauge will be changed to standard and will become part of the HSL, and an older classic line that was dismantled will be put in service again in Iberian gauge.

Last year it was announced that a gauge changer was to be built in La Encina to allow trains to use the HSL between Alicante and La Encina and then the current line between La Encina and Valencia.

However a few months ago it was announced that this gauge changer will not be built, as priority is again given to finishing the HSL Valencia - Xàtiva and changing the gauge between Xàtiva and La Encina.

That's why I said the situation is the opposite, as priority has been given again to completion of full HSL between Alicante and Valencia. However it will take some time to finish the remaining works, that's why I don't think it will be ready before 2017.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 06:23 AM   #3332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
About that Atocha-Chamartin connection - what will be the effect of it in the form it's going to open next year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
As it will open without the new underground part of Atocha station, the effects won't be as big as they could have been. Basically it will mean a considerable reduction of time (around one hour) for through trains which currently need to change gauge twice and reverse to cross Madrid. Moreover, as they will only call at Chamartín (currently they serve both Atocha and Chamartín stations), there will be time savings.

However, I don't think there will be a considerable increase in the number of trains that could use the new tunnel, at least for the moment, as the lack of underground through platforms at Atocha renders these potential services less attractive for users of the HSL to Sevilla, Toledo, Málaga, Alicante and Valencia. Of course there are passengers who would benefit from services calling at Chamartín, but I have the impression that establishing two different stations in Madrid as origin or destination for services to a given city would cause confusion among a certain number of users.

And for the moment there are only mid-term plans to build a connection between the new Atocha - Chamartín tunnel and the HSL Madrid - Barcelona.
Basically, it will mean that some (all?) of the Alvia trains that run through Madrid will save quite a lot of time (about one hour).

I don't think that any new services will be created, or at least, not yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
The same about that Mediterranean route connection. There is still a lot more construction ongoing between that section and Valencia, right? Still waiting for those Alvia trains between Barcelona and Murcia on a mixture of new and fully upgraded lines....
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Currently the construction of the section between Vandellós and Camp de Tarragona station on the Madrid - Barcelona HSL is an advanced stage. Hopefully the opening of the whole section will take place early next year. Therefore, there will be Alvia trains using the HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona and then the upgraded classic line up to Castellón.
The new section between Vandellos and Vilaseca will probably open before or around Christmas, if all goes well.

This will mean having continuous double-track between Barcelona and Valencia at last, which will help quite a lot in terms of regularity.
Right now there are loads of delays on that line, and that's mainly because of the single track. It's a bottleneck.

But the section between Vilaseca and Camp de Tarragona will take longer, 2016, and not all of the trains will use it, since running through Camp de Tarragona (which is a parkway station located 9 km away from Tarragona) will turn the routes Tarragona-Castellon and Tarragona-Valencia uncompetitive against the car. So a few trains will not use the HSL between Vilaseca and Barcelona, they will keep on running on the classic line instead, like now.

There's talk of a gauge changer somewhere in the Vilafranca line (Cercanías Barcelona line R4), but we doubt that could save much time at all.

This Tarragona problem will take long to be sorted, because it's more a problem of urbanism (which is rather populated, but also rather sprawled and fragmented -here an industrial estate, there some neighbourhood, there a motorway, and in the midst of it all some archaeological site-) and geography (the area is hilly, so a new chord would be very expensive, and besides, Tarragona is rich in archaeololgy and has a very poor quality rock, so tunnelling is not as easy or cheap as one would expect) that complicate things in an area which already has a rather complicated network.

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It's still a mystery what will happen south of Castellón in the short term. There are works to introduce standard gauge (through dual gauge) between Valencia and Castellón, but only Madrid - Castellón trains will benefit from that (as there is no gauge changer planned in Castellón). A potential change of gauge between Castellón and Tarragona is also projected, but nobody knows exactly how it will be implemented.
The Ministry pretends that AVE trains would be able to run from Madrid to Castellon, but that's not much likely, since that would involve changing the tension of the electrification, and that would not be cheap at all (and I doubt it will end up happening, otherwise that would be a serious waste of money).

Between Tarragona and Castellon, at the moment, the latest official statements by the Ministry say they will extend the dual gauge from Vilaseca to Castellon. We'll see.

Preliminary works for the dual gauge between Vilaseca and Castellbisbal (current end of the standard gauge for freight from France) have started, but that will take long since it involves the upgrade of an old single-track, long-abandoned tunnel, and a rather important upgrade of Sant Vicenç de Calders station (which is the terminus for lots of commuter trains from Barcelona).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Anyway, between Valencia and Alicante there is an almost finished HSL (Valencia - La Encina), which will connect with the already in service HSL Madrid - Alicante in La Encina junction. There are plans to finished the said HSL, but I guess not before 2017 (being optimistic). Then there's the HSL Monforte del Cid (near Alicante) - Murcia, which is under construction and will open surely next year (although the Government still says it will open before the end of 2015 -which is almost impossible). The issue of gauge still remains unresolved, but now it seems there will be standard gauge (double track) between Monforte del Cid and San Isidro, and there will be a track in standard gauge and another in Iberian gauge between San Isidro and Murcia, as the HSL replaces the old classic line (the new HSL between these two stations will also be used by diesel commuter trains at least until the classic line between San Isidro and Alicante is electrified and changed to standard gauge).

The situation is still quite unclear and confusing, but I hope I've helped somehow...
The Ministry is dealing very badly the stuff between Alicante and Murcia, and has done so right from the start.
Southeastern Spain has always been very neglected in terms of railway.

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Actually the situation is the opposite. After the tracks were laid in 2008-2010 between Valencia and Xàtiva, the line was put on hold. Now electrification and signaling is pending.

Between Xàtiva and La Encina, the current classic line was upgraded in the 90s (it was actually a new layout), so its gauge will be changed to standard and will become part of the HSL, and an older classic line that was dismantled will be put in service again in Iberian gauge.
That's the original classic main line, and it's not fully dismantled. Only a part of it had been, the rest was closed for upgrade (which is taking too long), and another sector has always been in use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Last year it was announced that a gauge changer was to be built in La Encina to allow trains to use the HSL between Alicante and La Encina and then the current line between La Encina and Valencia.

However a few months ago it was announced that this gauge changer will not be built, as priority is again given to finishing the HSL Valencia - Xàtiva and changing the gauge between Xàtiva and La Encina.

That's why I said the situation is the opposite, as priority has been given again to completion of full HSL between Alicante and Valencia. However it will take some time to finish the remaining works, that's why I don't think it will be ready before 2017.
It certainly won't.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 05:05 PM   #3333
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Basically, it will mean that some (all?) of the Alvia trains that run through Madrid will save quite a lot of time (about one hour). I don't think that any new services will be created, or at least, not yet.
.
I am pretty sure that AVE services will be operated between Valencia or Alicante to Leon and Burgos. Just as it happened with the Alvia, it is just a question of using only one train instead of two when one service ends in Madrid and another starts there. As a example Valencia Madrid and Madrid Leon, that are two different services with two different trains will be operated as only one service Valencia Leon, with at list 20 minutes of stop in Madrid for catering purposes. No new services, but yes a whole lot of new combinations without transfer from train to train.

Services from Sevilla and Malaga are different, just because their ending station will be Atocha and not Chamartin, in this case a service Malaga Madrid Leon means changing the station and that is something not clear, people are used to end in Atocha.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 06:02 PM   #3334
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I am pretty sure that AVE services will be operated between Valencia or Alicante to Leon and Burgos.
I am not, and you shouldn't be either.

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Services from Sevilla and Malaga are different, just because their ending station will be Atocha and not Chamartin, in this case a service Malaga Madrid Leon means changing the station and that is something not clear, people are used to end in Atocha.
I can't see why they should be any different to the services to/from Valencia or Alicante, which right now use Atocha station, too.

There are two very defined types of traffic, the Madrid-province and the province-province, which attract different people each.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 06:45 PM   #3335
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Has anyone studied how big is a demand for connections like Malaga-Leon or Valencia-Leon? I would imagine really small compared to Madrid-any of those places. Am I wrong?

On the other hand for the demand which does exist a train is probably the most rational choice already and will be even more so very soon. Driving takes very long time and there is no functional airport there.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 07:06 PM   #3336
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There is not such demand.
More... corner to corner demand is high on peak dates and quite small in single days. Other business is that a Leon-Valencia, for instance, can have 100% Leon-Madrid and 100% Madrid-Valencia

But for Renfe is usually easier to offer you to link.


It is enough to see Barcelona-Seville/Malaga. A lot of services in summer and a lot of offers the rest of the year
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Old September 13th, 2015, 10:18 PM   #3337
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I can't see why they should be any different to the services to/from Valencia or Alicante, which right now use Atocha station, too.
Exactly. Without the underground part of Atocha station there's little chance that AVE services between Madrid and both Alicante and Valencia start using Chamartín.

And even with the future extensions of HSR to Burgos, León and Zamora, there's another problem: Alvia services that currently cross Madrid now connect both coasts (that is to say, Alicante - Gijón, La Coruña - Alicante, etc.). Therefore the extension of HSR to Burgos, León and Zamora won't be enough to create new AVE services replacing the current Alvia services, as it would mean that the coastal cities would lose their current connections.

And furthermore, Renfe is not particularly interested in using the current Alvia trains (which have a maximum speed of 250 km/h) for journeys that mostly use HSR (where AVE trains can reach 300 km/h). Precisely in the Spanish forum there was a discussion about the possibility of creating Alvia services between Cádiz and Barcelona. If they don't exist is mainly because more than 90% of its route (between Seville and Barcelona) would be using HSR.

In addition there would also be a fare problem, as AVE services are more expensive than Alvia services, and establishing Alvia services in routes where there are already AVE services would create competition between two different Renfe trains (e.g. between Seville and Barcelona if Cádiz - Barcelona Alvia services are implemented).
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Old September 13th, 2015, 10:25 PM   #3338
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I think the following map will help viewers to understand better the undergoing discussion:



https://www.google.es/url?sa=i&rct=j...42259018479598

While the government indicates that Leon, Zamora, Granada, Murcia and Burgos LAV´s will start operations this year it will not be the case. In fact if we take into account that, after operations start at 200 KM/H one year is needed to achieve 300 Km/H, we can count a couple of years for all those lines to open at full performance. There is also a tunnel in Madrid, a high speed link between Chamartin, the station that is used for northern trains and Atocha, wich is used east, north east (including Barcelona) and South, in the same situation, it will be finished in a couple of years. Actually services crossing the country from north to east or south crossing Madrid use a Spanish gauge line that makes the trains lose one hour, because high speed trains must change gauge´s twice. Those trains are Alvias limited to 250 Km/H and with cheaper fares than AVE services, that have a max speed of 300 KM/h and are more costly.

Once Granada an Murcia are operational the expected situation was to shift the eastern corridor, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia to Chamartin, just because Atocha will be too crowded, if that as changed i am not aware of the situation. As it can be seen in the Map, services from the east to the north (from Valencia, Murcia and Alicante towards Leon and Burgos), will have reduced journeys, because the distances are small. This is important because it will allow a easy management of the fleet, including where the trains "sleeps". In the case of Alvias trips are very long, because the actually go further than the High speed network.

Renfe is actually interested in running AVE trains and not alvia´s because the fare is higher, just the reason for not using a Alvia between Cadiz and Barcelona in addition to AVE trains.

Last edited by Rayancito; September 13th, 2015 at 10:48 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2015, 11:07 PM   #3339
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Thanks for the map, but there's a small mistake: Albacete - Alicante HSL should be colored black as it opened 2 years ago.

Besides, HSL Valladolid - León and HSL Olmedo - Zamora are certainly going to open this year. Actually Valladolid - León is going to open in two weeks, while if there are no problems Olmedo - Zamora is going to open in December.

Granada, Murcia and Burgos are not going to have HSR this year, that's impossible. The Ministry only has three months and a half to do what took more than a year in the two HSL that are going to open before the end of 2015.
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Old September 14th, 2015, 12:12 AM   #3340
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In the case of Madrid having standard gauge connection between Atocha and Chamartin is of course essential, but generally it's not really necessary to have through services from every corner to every corner. All you need is good connections with minimum delays. Services running on HS lines only are already pretty punctual so all what is left to do is organise the timetable and ticketing better. Barcelona-Cadiz: just have a local train (nonstop if desired) depart 10-15 min after AVE arrives from Barcelona and sell those tickets together. Problem solved and no extra money needs to be spent.

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