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Old October 24th, 2011, 04:42 AM   #321
437.001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains,
Not yet, you need to change in Figueres-Vilafant station. By 2012 they will be direct though.

Quote:
how long will the ride be,
6 hours more or less, from 2012 on, now it´s like 7h20min or so.
To be shortened in future years (the goal is 4h30min). The French part of the line between Perpignan and Nimes is not High Speed yet.

Quote:
what station do they arrive at in Paris,
Gare de Lyon.

Quote:
and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?
For now there is a change at Figueres-Vilafant station.
If you come from Barcelona, you take a train to Figueres-Vilafant, once you arrive there on the same platform there is a TGV waiting.
From 2012 on, there won´t be no break of gauge anymore.

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Thanks!
You are welcome.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:41 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains, how long will the ride be, what station do they arrive at in Paris, and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?

Thanks!


Apart of explanations of 437.001 and several photos you can surf on the web where you will notice that change of train can be made in the same plattform, I post an old map and explain it:



Wide black line is the high speed railway. And "Estación en proyecto" (station under project) is since last year a real station with service where TGV finishs.

Trains to the north are by that line.

Line to the south is on works.

Red line is the old line with different gauge. It is indicated which part will dissapear and which part will be the new one.

Currently:

TGV comes from north to the station in the black line.
All Spanish trains goes via Figueres centre to Port Bou and Cerbere (discontinuous red line). This includes the night trains from Barcelona to Geneve, Milano, Zurich and Paris
Two trains from Barcelona and only one stop at Gerona will take the branch to arrive to "Figueres-Vilafant".

Should you are going to ask for timetables (http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/index.html English version) BE SURE you are picking "Figueres-Vilafant" station instead of "Figueres" (the difference will be being in the same platform that TGV or in the centre of Figueres).

There are only two trains from Figueres-Vilafant... the same that TGV come from Paris (and nearly also from Geneve). The schedules are prepared to shuttle.

The connection is not assured in case of delay of one train, but as far as I know, in one case, they wait for the other train.


Arriving to Barcelona you will be able to get a direct train to almost any side in Spain (some destinations require connection at Madrid)
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Old October 27th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrys View Post
Did someone have a good map of the AVE network (current and future) ?
This one, from wikipedia, looks old and not very elaborate

This one of www.ferropedia.es is quite accurate and realistic as it considers only lines in service or with advanced works. It represents the situation after the opening of the HST Ourense-Santiago in a few weeks (December 10th, 2011).



Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España.

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_...B1a_y_Portugal
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Old October 28th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #324
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thx !!!

i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!!
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Old October 28th, 2011, 01:30 AM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrys View Post
thx !!!

i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!!
Is prepared to be changed to 1435mm when

1) the HST from Olmedo-Zamora arrives to Ourense (will take several years, not before 2016)
2) a solution has been found for the freight trains (the HST between Vigo-Santiago-A Coruña is in fact an upgrade of the old line). This is a major problem and precise plans are not known/ do no exist. (?)

I put again the HST map (situation december 2011) together with the map of all lines (situation beginning of 2011) so that you can understand that a good solution to the second point is not easy without changing the gauge of the whole network.




Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España.



Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Declaración sobre la Red.

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_...B1a_y_Portugal
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Old October 28th, 2011, 11:10 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by etcs_03 View Post
changing the gauge of the whole network
ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #327
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No need until the international gauge arrives there.

And I explain...

Spain (and Portugal and several other countries) have their railway networks with a different gauge which creates a handicap for international connections (no problem Spain-Portugal trains).

New high speed lines are being built with international gauges... which since 1992 is creating a lot of troubles in the network but solving them... as well as you have trains with several gauges. Today, every line for high speed is in a different gauge.

Central stations in every city have separated platforms for high speed or for normal trains... because they have different gauge. This is... high speed lines do not start in the end of each city but in the own station (and creates the handicap of building a new paralel line until the own station with a different gauge).

All new trains buyed since several years ago are prepared for a gauge change. In this way a train can use the high speed network but continue later in the general network. This is why Alicante, Algeciras, Granada, La Coruña, Gijon, Bilbao, Irun, Vigo and soooooo on (and cities in the middle) have a train that profits part the high speed line and continues on the old line while it is on works until the end.

The problem is that changing gauge takes several minutes (sometimes until 15 minutes) and ADIF has a 100 EUR fare for each change.

In this way, a train Madrid-La Coruña should have to change twice of gauge.
Infrastructure has been preparated to do not change gauge several times but being able to change it to the international one when connection with it.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.
Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.

Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.

And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?
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Old October 28th, 2011, 08:22 PM   #329
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Some pics of Barcelona Sagrera AVE Station











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Old October 28th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.

Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.

And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?
How many standard gauge yards and industries are linked to the Perthus line? This should be considered, also with the fact that today traffic between the Iberian penisnula and the rest of Europe is seriously limited by the gauge.

Finally, as most Spanish broad gauge lines are heavily underutilized, it wouldn't be problematic to convert them to standard gauge. For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other. On single track lines it would be more difficult, but not so much as they usually see 4 passenegrs and 1 freight trains a day.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 10:54 PM   #331
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The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).


Apart of it, as far as I know, any new railway strech, or just a refurbishement is prepared for European standard gauge. This is... they can refurbish just 3 km in a line, and will be open with Spanish gauge... but the line will be ready to be change to international gauge... at least in those 3 km (or the strech refurbished).


There are, sometimes, long lines that could be changed any day... but the problem of having two gauges is really big.

Apart of that, for high speed trains that goes later in the Spanish gauge to any corner... the change has a fare of 100 EUR... and that could be 1 EUR to add to any ticket.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 11:41 PM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).
This is true.

That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...
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Old October 29th, 2011, 12:19 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other...
+1000

This can develop the big potential of the Paris-Bordeaux-Madrid line for fret and passengers
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Old October 29th, 2011, 02:20 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This is true.

That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...


There is another problem... all the network is radial. All lines departing Madrid. It is the fourth time it happens (first with the roads, second with the normal railway, third with the motorways, fourth with the high speed rails).

Today the Barcelona-Vigo uses the high speed rail between Barcelona and Zaragoza and continues with the old rail.
They will open new parts... but they will have to decide if this train (that connects the north side of the country corner to corner) will have to change the gauge several times or not...
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Old October 29th, 2011, 02:58 AM   #335
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437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 03:06 AM   #336
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Summary:

Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona.

So then:

Trains Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (or anywhere before Zaragoza through Barcelona) will stop at Camp de Tarragona (only possibility)

Trains Zaragoza-Tarragona-Tortosa (low demande but possible) will stop at Tarragona-central

Trains Barcelona-Valencia could stop anywhere in the two stations but Tarragona-central is close to the city and to Reus. It is much easier to have a shuttle from there... and will be in the airport of Reus.

Furthermore, it is planned to have an European gauge until Tarragona-central (even when it will be at Reus, not at Tarragona) and later a gauge-changer to continue through Valencia.

Since there until southern L'Hospitalet there will be a new line with stops near (but outside of the towns) Salou, Cambrils and L'Hospitalet.

They need a point for shuttle lines and this point was the best.


Anyway, 437.001 will be able to give us further details
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Old October 29th, 2011, 03:41 PM   #337
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AVE Madrid-Valencia : Renfe trabaja para reducir hasta en 25 minutos

Aunque durante su primer año de funcionamiento ya ha sido un éxito entre los viajeros, el AVE entre Madrid y Valencia aún no ha alcanzado la velocidad de crucero. Renfe evalúa ahora la posibilidad de poner en marcha los trabajos previos para incrementar la velocidad de circulación en esta línea, que pasaría de los 300 actuales hasta los 310-315 kilómetros por hora. Así, el recorrido entre ambas capitales podrá efectuarse en tan sólo 85 minutos, hasta 25 minutos menos que algunos trenes en la actualidad y 13 minutos menos que la mayoría de los viajes, con una duración de 98 minutos.

La mejora es similar a la del trazado entre Madrid y Barcelona, en el que la velocidad de circulación de algunos trenes se ha elevado de 300 a 310 kilómetros por hora, para reducir la duración del trayecto.

En el caso del AVE Madrid-Valencia, estas mejoras no se pueden aplicar hasta concluir el primer año de funcionamiento de la línea desde el viaje inaugural, que se produjo el pasado 19 de diciembre, para que la plataforma se asiente adecuadamente. Concluido este plazo, se realizará una exhaustiva revisión de seguridad en toda la línea. Sólo en caso de que este estudio dé un resultado positivo, se podrá incrementar la velocidad de los trenes, algo que debe evaluar la empresa pública Adif.
98 minutos de media

En la actualidad, el AVE Madrid-Valencia circula a 300 kilómetros por hora y efectúa el recorrido en una media de unos 98 minutos. Una vez concluyan estas labores técnicas, podrá viajar entre 310 y 315 kilómetros por hora, por lo que la duración del trayecto será inferior a una hora y 25 minutos. Mientras tanto, siguen adelante los plazos previstos para el resto del trazado en la Comunidad Valenciana, según los cuales el AVE llegará a Alicante en 2012.

http://www.abc.es/20111025/comunidad...-20111025.html
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Old October 29th, 2011, 10:09 PM   #338
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Same thing pour the AVE Madrid-Barcelona

------------------------

El AVE Madrid-Barcelona circulará a 310 kilómetros por hora desde hoy



Madrid, 24 oct (EFE).- El tren de alta velocidad que enlaza Madrid con Barcelona circulará, a partir de hoy, a 310 kilómetros por hora en algunos tramos del trayecto, lo que permitirá reducir el tiempo de viaje entre ambas ciudades a dos horas y media.

De momento cuatro circulaciones diarias acortarán su tiempo de viaje en unos 10 minutos de media, mientras que, a partir de diciembre, las mejoras comenzarán a extenderse a todos los trenes de este corredor de alta velocidad, según el Ministerio de Fomento.

Las cuatro circulaciones que reducirán a partir de hoy su tiempo de viaje serán los trenes que salen de Madrid a las 07.00 horas y las 17.00 horas, y de Barcelona, a las 06.30 y las 17.30 horas.

El incremento de la velocidad ha sido posible gracias a la puesta en servicio por parte de Fomento del segundo nivel del Sistema Europeo de Gestión del Tráfico Ferroviario ERTMS en la línea Madrid-Barcelona-frontera francesa.

Su implantación se hará, no obstante, de forma progresiva, por lo que, en la primera fase, el ERTMS de nivel 2 entrará en servicio comercial en el tramo Madrid-Lleida, tras culminar con éxito las pruebas técnicas de su validación y fiabilidad, mientras que en el de Lleida-Barcelona, lo hará en diciembre de este año.

El incremento de la velocidad de explotación comercial también será gradual y, en la primera fase, la velocidad máxima se elevará hasta los 310 kilómetros por hora, donde la infraestructura lo permita y una vez homologado el material rodante.

El ERTMS es impulsado desde la Unión Europea para asegurar la interoperabilidad de todas las nuevas líneas que se construyan en las diferentes redes ferroviarias de los estados miembros.

Con 1.491 kilómetros de línea férrea dotada de ERTMS, España tiene en estos momentos la mayor implantación del sistema común europeo de señalización. EFE

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=972892
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Old October 30th, 2011, 12:32 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.
The answer is that politicians put their paws in everything they can for reasons that they alone know and that we can only guess.
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Old October 30th, 2011, 11:12 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Summary:

Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona...
This map from www.ferropedia.es illustrates what Alserrod has explained:



In the article http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/El_fer...l_en_Tarragona there are several other maps, including this one of 2005 that I find very interesting, but that unfortunately was not followed.

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Last edited by etcs_03; October 30th, 2011 at 11:18 PM.
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