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Old December 11th, 2015, 01:00 AM   #3401
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We still don't know.
It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated.
Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.

Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change.

That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).

And the rolling stock that goes with it all.

It will be a lot of money.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #3402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

We still don't know.
It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated.
Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.

Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change.

That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).

And the rolling stock that goes with it all.

It will be a lot of money.
That's a mighty big shopping list!
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Old December 16th, 2015, 01:02 PM   #3403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

We still don't know.
It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated.
Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.

Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change.

That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).

And the rolling stock that goes with it all.

It will be a lot of money.
Do you know the position of different parties regarding rail/high-speed rail?
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Old December 19th, 2015, 06:32 AM   #3404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neb81 View Post
That's a mighty big shopping list!
Not really. Many of them are fairly advanced, and very much delayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonasry View Post
Do you know the position of different parties regarding rail/high-speed rail?
It doesn't matter what they say. What matters is what they do. They're politicians.

And anyway, whatever their position is about it, it looks like the new government will have to be a coalition, so...

Wait and see.

Anyway, all of the aforementioned sections will be opened, the only question is when.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 06:35 AM   #3405
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NEWS!

And talking about openings...

The HSL between Olmedo junction and Zamora opened on December 17.

The fastest travel time Madrid-Zamora is now of 1h 33min.

I think Alvia services running beyond Zamora (bound for Corunna, Ferrol, Ourense or Pontevedra) still use the classic line for now, as it seems the new Zamora gauge changer isn't finished yet.

One new Alvia service has been added. It does the route Madrid-Segovia-Zamora and vv.

Besides, the same day the electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line opened too.

New electric Alvia services have started operating between Madrid and Salamanca, calling at Segovia.

The fastest travel time Madrid-Salamanca is now of 1h 36min.

Source: SSC Spain.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 06:11 PM   #3406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
NEWS!

And talking about openings...

The HSL between Olmedo junction and Zamora opened on December 17.

The fastest travel time Madrid-Zamora is now of 1h 33min.

I think Alvia services running beyond Zamora (bound for Corunna, Ferrol, Ourense or Pontevedra) still use the classic line for now, as it seems the new Zamora gauge changer isn't finished yet.

One new Alvia service has been added. It does the route Madrid-Segovia-Zamora and vv.

Besides, the same day the electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line opened too.

New electric Alvia services have started operating between Madrid and Salamanca, calling at Segovia.

The fastest travel time Madrid-Salamanca is now of 1h 36min.

Source: SSC Spain.

Only a few days of the general elections in Spain!!

Polticians never change!!


Thanks for the info!!
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:11 PM   #3407
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I almost want to look up when the next general elections are going to be. Could be informative for the topic of this thread.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:22 PM   #3408
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Is it true that Ciudadanos is against high speed rail and wants to stop all projects?
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Old December 20th, 2015, 12:34 AM   #3409
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I would suggest to terminate what can be terminated within the next few years, then work on integration of the UIC HSR network with classic lines where this makes sense.

Then drop any projects that are completed only a few % and will cost enormous amounts of money to complete (like the Corredor Navarro).

And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.

After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.
Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
(There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)

Anyway, the most important thing to do in my opinion is to invest in improving integration (time tables & connections). Time tables are still organized like the ones in central Europe 40 years ago, which is an enormous waste of resources, especially when considering the investments into high speed network and rolling stock.
I.e. while nowadays time tables should support the network character of a railway system (easing changing trains, regular interval timetables, systems of hubs and spokes) to justify high investments and costs, in Spain long distance services seem mostly organized on a per "Line" baisis with irregular service and missing connections. So one might be happy to go from A to B if both A and B are situated along the same (HSR-)line, but this only partially reflects the needs of the geographically distributed population...

In adition, while the HSR Network seems perfect in itself, wide parts of the iberian long distance network seem to fall apart. I fear in a not so far future many lines will be shut down because funds were too much drained by HSR...
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Old December 20th, 2015, 02:38 AM   #3410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I almost want to look up when the next general elections are going to be. Could be informative for the topic of this thread.
Don't even mention the word "elections"!



We're a bit fed up with them by now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is it true that Ciudadanos is against high speed rail and wants to stop all projects?
We can't say, it's too early, we don't know what will happen, and it's rather likely it will be a coalition anyway, so... wait and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
I would suggest to terminate what can be terminated within the next few years,
We're already at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
then work on integration of the UIC HSR network with classic lines where this makes sense.
No. It doesn't make sense in many cases.
Geography and demography are the key to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Then drop any projects that are completed only a few % and will cost enormous amounts of money to complete (like the Corredor Navarro).
That one is an understatement that it won't go ahead, or at least not in decades.

The only one that is not very advanced but definitely should go ahead is Murcia-Almeria.
But since it is not very advanced, they'll take it easier than with others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.

After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.
Should we? We only started it because the EU said so. Grunt...

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
(There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)
Keep in mind that availability of rolling stock can also be a problem.
Renfe is having more and more of a shortage of rolling stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Anyway, the most important thing to do in my opinion is to invest in improving integration (time tables & connections). Time tables are still organized like the ones in central Europe 40 years ago, which is an enormous waste of resources, especially when considering the investments into high speed network and rolling stock.
I.e. while nowadays time tables should support the network character of a railway system (easing changing trains, regular interval timetables, systems of hubs and spokes) to justify high investments and costs, in Spain long distance services seem mostly organized on a per "Line" baisis with irregular service and missing connections. So one might be happy to go from A to B if both A and B are situated along the same (HSR-)line, but this only partially reflects the needs of the geographically distributed population...
Mmmh... it's not as bad as it seems. Can be improved, but don't worry.
The main railway hubs for connections are Zaragoza and Madrid, so it isn't much of a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
In adition, while the HSR Network seems perfect in itself, wide parts of the iberian long distance network seem to fall apart. I fear in a not so far future many lines will be shut down because funds were too much drained by HSR...
No man. If any classic line closures were to happen, it would be because of their inefectiveness post-HSL.
Some lines just don't serve enough population, or are far too bendy for the route, and still exist only for the long-distance passenger service, otherwise certain provinces would have no rail by now. Once the HSR takes over, some services will have to be withdrawn.

It's not a problem of lack of funds, it's more a case of whatever funds were invested on certain classic lines wouldn't be useful anyway.

Spain's a unique case in Europe. No other European country has its population distribution, with big urban areas next to some of the least populated places in Europe, all of it in one of the most mountainous environments in the continent, in fact the most mountainous after Switzerland, but in a country the size of France.
In this respect, we're one of a kind, so well-tested solutions that have been successful in other parts of Europe are not warranted a success here, even if on paper they would appear to look logical.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 01:06 PM   #3411
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Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 01:40 PM   #3412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.

After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.
Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
(There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)
I disagree.
If you keep both gauges, you'll need heavy and expensive trains to run on standard and Iberian.
Why not allow lean and mean trains to run on the whole network anywhere.
Do you disagree that only one gauge as a whole aids network integration?
What if you'd like Madrid-small county services, without getting off?

But apart from that, as far as I know, high speed (250km/h+) gauge changing isn't possible, am I mistaken?
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Old December 20th, 2015, 02:48 PM   #3413
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But apart from that, as far as I know, high speed (250km/h+) gauge changing isn't possible, am I mistaken?
Yes You are right but the problem isn't passenger rather freight trains for which functioning and affordable gage changing technology isn't available. This is what drives Mediterranean corridor UIC gauge implementation going.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 03:01 PM   #3414
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Just count the number of axles on a passenger train vs. freight train... You could theoretically use same technology but it would render freight cars very expensive.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 03:14 PM   #3415
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Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.
Only as off topic: It's not in the sense as you're thinking.
Spain has the second highest average height in Europe, after Switzerland. (In other sites is said Spain is fifth after Switzerland, Austria, Andorra and Liechtenstein) In Spain, the average height is about 650 metres above sea level.

If you add to this fact the vastness of the country, you can easily think about the difficulty to build a HSL.
Even being fifth, a HSL in Switzerland will be shorter, and maybe only one or two HSL would be necessary. In Spain, HSL are long and you need a lot of them to connect the major cities
France is bigger than Spain, but most of it's over a plain. Italy has the Alps, but the country is smaller and population live near the sea level.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 03:15 PM   #3416
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Quote:
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Yes You are right but the problem isn't passenger rather freight trains for which functioning and affordable gage changing technology isn't available. This is what drives Mediterranean corridor UIC gauge implementation going.
So in my opinion, this gauge changing is a good thing, the more produce and goods travel by rail (and not by road), the better!
Thank you Richard for this clarification.

I also hope night high speed corridors, and next to no air travel.
People from the US land in London or the coastal regions and travel further by rail.
I would love to go to China by high speed rail (I know the Siberian Express, I'll try to take that once too, but London - Beijing in 40 hours should be possible...)
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Old December 20th, 2015, 04:49 PM   #3417
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Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.
It is matter of opinion. Madrid is the highest capital in Europe (and only about 650 m osl, Bern is lower).

Going by motorway from Madrid to Zaragoza there is a sign with a little mountain pass... near 1.100 m.

To go north and east one long tunnel had to be built and so on.


In other ways, there are two "flat" areas (northen "meseta" and southern "meseta"), two open valleys (Ebro and Guadalquivir) and to go from one to other corner you may cross mountains. Higher or Smaller but mountains
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Old December 20th, 2015, 08:31 PM   #3418
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Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.
It's not the height of the mountains, it's the number of them.

We don't have a Mont Blanc, but we have many more mountains than France. Few parts of Spain are really flat.

And that's a big problem for railway infrastructure, and for transport in general.
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Old December 21st, 2015, 05:40 AM   #3419
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So in my opinion, this gauge changing is a good thing, the more produce and goods travel by rail (and not by road), the better!
Thank you Richard for this clarification.

I also hope night high speed corridors, and next to no air travel.
People from the US land in London or the coastal regions and travel further by rail.
I would love to go to China by high speed rail (I know the Siberian Express, I'll try to take that once too, but London - Beijing in 40 hours should be possible...)
That's the dream. But I'd rather go to Hong Kong or Tokyo than Beijing.
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 01:30 PM   #3420
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Originally Posted by bifhihher View Post
So in my opinion, this gauge changing is a good thing, the more produce and goods travel by rail (and not by road), the better!
Thank you Richard for this clarification.

I also hope night high speed corridors, and next to no air travel.
People from the US land in London or the coastal regions and travel further by rail.
I would love to go to China by high speed rail (I know the Siberian Express, I'll try to take that once too, but London - Beijing in 40 hours should be possible...)
This is really romantic.
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