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Old January 8th, 2016, 07:00 PM   #3481
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Not really. Both are first world countries. But Spain managed to lay tracks and open a line in 1992, while the US did nothing but flail about.
Yes, but the USA has a freight-oriented rail network, and a very different urban layout.

Anyway, we'll see how they manage when they start operating their first HSL.

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Hahaha. What.

First of all, Elon Musk isn't funding anything other than the test track.

Second of all, everybody has lemons and this appears to be his. The ideas behind hyperloop have been around for 170 years (1840 literature, 1860 prototype) and its never gotten off the ground for very good reasons. Hyperloop is overly-complex, and the budget would be orders of magnitude beyond what is being hyped.
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Hyperloop has some pretty significant safety and capacity issues it needs to iron out (e.g., explosive decompression if any part of the metal tubes are ruptured, low-capacity vehicles without adequate stopping distance, etc.), as well as a way to address the same issues conventional high-speed rail faces (e.g., high construction and astronomical land acquisition costs) before it could be seen as an adequate contender for transportation.

Elon Musk is a smart man, so I assume that his chimerically low cost estimates for Hyperloop come from his desire to attract investors and interested politicians and less from a misunderstanding of how and why infrastructure costs as much as it does.
I think the both of you are right at the moment. Time will tell...

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
That's the last of the problems. The first is the idiot location...
Yes, they lost a chance again. I don't get why they don't favor interchange with classic lines by building the HSR stations at the intersections, but then again... the area is car-oriented anyway.
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Old January 8th, 2016, 10:23 PM   #3482
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I don't get why they don't favor interchange with classic lines by building the HSR stations at the intersections, but then again... the area is car-oriented anyway.
Sure, but you can be car oriented and still prefer train for going to Madrid. Probably not from this station, though.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 03:29 AM   #3483
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Seriously? One can drive directly onto the tracks....
Here is a how-to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWdWHSgI-4
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Old January 11th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #3484
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Looking at the AVE network, the way it is designed looks to me a very good choice for transportation across a country like Spain, given the distances between the big cities and the flat terrain for most parts of the country. However the way it is implemented and the priorities given in the construction of the lines look to me a bit weird.

It is very clear to everybody I think that the first priorities should have been and actually was the Madrid-Seville and the Madrid-Barcelona lines. The next priorities, the connection of Malaga to the Madrid-Seville line and the new Madrid-Valencia line also look reasonable to me. Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Valencia, Malaga and Zaragoza which is located right on the Madrid-Barcelona line, are among the biggest metropolitan areas in the country with large and significant industry in most of them.

What I do not understand is why lines like Madrid-Extremadura, Madrid-Galicia, Madrid-Asturias, the Basque Y, Madrid-Burgos-Basque Country and Madrid-Albacete-Alicante put in relatively high priority (sometimes in the same priority as the lines above). Doesn't make more sense before starting building these long and expensive lines that actually do not serve any really large metropolitan area, to try first to exploit the existing lines in even better way, like connecting more cities to them? For example before building the long Madrid-Albacete-Alicante line it would be preferable to connect first Alicante with Valencia. Before building the Basque Y and the Madrid-Valladolid-Burgos-Basque country lines plus some others in the north of the country, to give priority to a single Bilbao-Vitoria-Zaragoza line. This would connect one of the biggest and most developed metropolitan areas in Spain, the city of Bilbao to Zaragoza and via this to both Madrid and Barcelona the two by far most populous and with the biggest industry metropolitan areas in country. San Sebastian, Burgos and other cities around could connect to this line at some later point of time. Bilbao almost 25 years after the introduction of the High speed service in Spain is still isolated from this network. Then the very next step for me should have been the connection between Barcelona and Valencia.

I am not saying that Galicia or Extremadura or Asturias, or Almeria should not one day connect to the rest of the High speed network. But given the economical problems in Spain, if the priories were different, today the AVE would be able to serve the transportation needs of the country in a better way, maybe at lower cost and be in position to make more revenues than what it makes today. The conditions I think would have been much better in order to start building new lines for Galicia, Extremadura, Asturias, Almeria etc.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 04:34 PM   #3485
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Alicante had more passengers on classic line that Valencia cos travel time was similar and distance is upper
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Old January 11th, 2016, 04:44 PM   #3486
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Alicante had more passengers on classic line that Valencia cos travel time was similar and distance is upper
Do you mean the old Alicante-Madrid line had more passengers than the old Valencia-Madrid line? What I am saying is for cost savings Alicante and Valencia both could be served by the same high-speed line at first place. Do we know what is the traffic figures for the new high speed lines Alicante-Madrid and Valencia-Madrid in comparison?

Last edited by clickgr; January 11th, 2016 at 04:54 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2016, 11:41 PM   #3487
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Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
Do you mean the old Alicante-Madrid line had more passengers than the old Valencia-Madrid line?

Yes I do.

Both trains went till Albacete and later, Valencia and Murcia-Alicante branches got different directions.

Valencia-Madrid was 4 hours exactly with a train quite similar to the Italian Pendolino

Alicante-Madrid... not sure but 4ish hours


By car... Alicante-Madrid 420 km
Valencia-Madrid 350 km

In addition, I'm not sure but Valencia connection to Madrid by flight wasn't bad at all.

Therefore... more passengers to the destination with poor air link and far away by car with a similar time.


Quote:
What I am saying is for cost savings Alicante and Valencia both could be served by the same high-speed line at first place. Do we know what is the traffic figures for the new high speed lines Alicante-Madrid and Valencia-Madrid in comparison?
Until this point, the line is the same
https://www.google.es/maps/@39.58316.../data=!3m1!1e3

Later you have an own line only for Valencia and another one only for Alicante... but in addition both lines will be shared for an Alicante-Barcelona (this is, partially these streches will be used for those journeys with the new infrastructure)

I let other forumers giving data cos I know there are someones with accurate numbers.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 12:09 AM   #3488
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I know how the two new lines go, that´s why I wrote what I wrote above.

From what you are writing I understand the old Valencia-Madrid line didn't have much traffic due to the better alternatives of transportation, not due to the fact there were no many passengers traveling between the two cities. Now that the high speed train is a better alternative than the car or the plane, It would be interesting to see the number of people using it compared to those traveling between Alicante and Madrid by train.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 12:24 AM   #3489
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The latest data are from 2013: half year to Alicante in AVE.

Madrid-Valencia: 1,838,436. Current time: 98 minutes. Previous: 207 minutes. Average speed: 239 km/h.
Madrid-Alicante: 880,356. Current time: 125 minutes. Previous: 205 minutes. Average speed: 230 km/h.

The two lines have been a similar number of passengers from Madrid, until 2007 a little more Alicante (741,064 versus 736,256) and since then, more travelers to Valencia (703,011 versus 648,895 in 2010 both over conventional line).
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Old January 12th, 2016, 12:28 AM   #3490
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Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
I know how the two new lines go, that´s why I wrote what I wrote above.

From what you are writing I understand the old Valencia-Madrid line didn't have much traffic due to the better alternatives of transportation, not due to the fact there were no many passengers traveling between the two cities. Now that the high speed train is a better alternative than the car or the plane, It would be interesting to see the number of people using it compared to those traveling between Alicante and Madrid by train.
There are two Madrid-Valencia classic lines. One through Cuenca and another one through Albacete.

All main trains went via Albacete. Cuenca one is only for regional and freight trains.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 12:34 AM   #3491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
The latest data are from 2013: half year to Alicante in AVE.

Madrid-Valencia: 1,838,436. Current time: 98 minutes. Previous: 207 minutes. Average speed: 239 km/h.
Madrid-Alicante: 880,356. Current time: 125 minutes. Previous: 205 minutes. Average speed: 230 km/h.

The two lines have been a similar number of passengers from Madrid, until 2007 a little more Alicante (741,064 versus 736,256) and since then, more travelers to Valencia (703,011 versus 648,895 in 2010 both over conventional line).
So I think it is clear the Madrid-Valencia HSL is much more significant than the Madrid-Alicante HSL as it now serves more than double number of passengers.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 01:01 AM   #3492
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When we have the data of 2014 (both destinations with AVE) we will see better (increase Alicante).

The important thing, from my perspective, is that the % of the aircraft versus AVE was 20% throughout 2013 to Alicante (in 2014 will be lower: between 15 and 18% in the second half), and to Valencia: 12%. And Valencia each year low.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:59 AM   #3493
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There is no doubt the Madrid-Alicante HSL is a useful line. However the same service could have been achieved via the Alicante-Valencia-Madrid route without big impact in the journey times. Definitely no more than 2,5 hours which is still huge improvement compared to the 4 hours in the old line and still competitive to the airplane. Plus the Alicante-Valencia high speed connection was already in the plans. The money saved going with this option could have been used to boost other more important lines like the Valencia-Barcelona line or the connection of the Basque country with the rest of the high-speed network, projects that until today still struggle to be finished.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 12:56 PM   #3494
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You forget Albacete... Had the current Madrid - Alicante route not been followed, Albacete wouldn't have HSR. And you also forget Murcia, a city that will have HSR access thanks to a branch off Madrid - Alicante HSL currently under construction.

In any event, the missing link between Valencia and Alicante (Valencia - Xàtiva - La Encina) is in an advanced stage of construction, so in a few years there will be HSR between Valencia, Alicante and Murcia, an important improvement for the Mediterranean corridor.

Don't forget Valencia - Castellón is being upgraded and Castellón - Vandellòs already has HSR features. The missing line Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona is also almost finished. Therefore in a few years, probably in 2017 or 2018 we'll have HSR (or almost HSR) between the French border and Murcia, the situation is not as bad as some people think.

Then in my opinion all efforts should be put on building the new through tunnel in Valencia, as well as a proper HSL between Valencia and Castellón, leaving the current alignment for freight and commuter/regional trains. Finishing the missing parts of Murcia - Almería HSL is also important, but I believe that solving the bottleneck in Valencia should have more priority.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 01:47 PM   #3495
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They also need to link Almeria (and Alicante, Valencia etc) to Granada.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 02:34 PM   #3496
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You forget Albacete... Had the current Madrid - Alicante route not been followed, Albacete wouldn't have HSR. And you also forget Murcia, a city that will have HSR access thanks to a branch off Madrid - Alicante HSL currently under construction.

In any event, the missing link between Valencia and Alicante (Valencia - Xàtiva - La Encina) is in an advanced stage of construction, so in a few years there will be HSR between Valencia, Alicante and Murcia, an important improvement for the Mediterranean corridor.

Don't forget Valencia - Castellón is being upgraded and Castellón - Vandellòs already has HSR features. The missing line Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona is also almost finished. Therefore in a few years, probably in 2017 or 2018 we'll have HSR (or almost HSR) between the French border and Murcia, the situation is not as bad as some people think.

Then in my opinion all efforts should be put on building the new through tunnel in Valencia, as well as a proper HSL between Valencia and Castellón, leaving the current alignment for freight and commuter/regional trains. Finishing the missing parts of Murcia - Almería HSL is also important, but I believe that solving the bottleneck in Valencia should have more priority.
No I am not forgetting Albacete. High Speed trains are for long distance connections, they do not have to pass through every small city, the same as not every small town needs to have an airport. The people from Albacete can still benefit from High speed services by taking a slow train to Cuenca and then connecting to the high speed train coming from Valencia.

As for Murcia to me would make more sense a Murica-Albacete line rather than an Alicante-Albacete and still Murcia can also be served by the Madrid-Valencia line and the Mediterranean corridor.

But after all it is a matter of priorities. If there was unlimited amount of money all these lines and many more could built at the same time, but in the Spanish crisis area I think cities like Murica and Albacete can wait in order to built first more important lines like the Mediterranean corridor.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 02:35 PM   #3497
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(Answering to Suburbanist) Theoretically yes, but that has few chances of ever becoming a reality, due to economic, demographic and geographic reasons.

In the best scenario, I imagine the current Granada - Almería line will be wholly electrified and upgraded (not massively), but HSR there is almost 100% out of the question.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 02:54 PM   #3498
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No I am not forgetting Albacete. High Speed trains are for long distance connections, they do not have to pass through every small city, the same as not every small town needs to have an airport. The people from Albacete can still benefit from High speed services by taking a slow train to Cuenca and then connecting to the high speed train coming from Valencia.

As for Murcia to me would make more sense a Murica-Albacete line rather than an Alicante-Albacete and still Murcia can also be served by the Madrid-Valencia line and the Mediterranean corridor.

But after all it is a matter of priorities. If there was unlimited amount of money all these lines and many more could built at the same time, but in the Spanish crisis area I think cities like Murica and Albacete can wait in order to built first more important lines like the Mediterranean corridor.

There was never a classic railway line between Albacete and Cuenca. Both cities had a railway connection for the first time in 2010 when the HSL was opened. And Albacete is not that small.

On the other hand, Murcia has traditionally fought for an Albacete - Murcia direct HSL, but the government decided to give more priority to Alicante - Murcia HSL, as it will be used both by Madrid - Murcia and Barcelona - Valencia - Murcia trains.

However, the idea of Madrid - Valencia - Alicante - Murcia would be too much of a detour, trains would be faster using the classic line Madrid - Alcázar de San Juan - Albacete - Murcia.

In any event, most lines you mention were already in an advanced stage of planning or construction when the current economic crisis started. If it hadn't been for the crisis, these lines would have opened in 2012 or so, but after the opening of Madrid - Albacete / Valencia (2010), priority was given to Ourense - Santiago (2011), Barcelona - Figueres (2013) and Albacete - Alicante (2013).

After that, it has been the turn to Northern and Northwestern Spain (Valladolid - León and Olmedo junction - Zamora in 2015), where HSR is clearly underdeveloped if you compare it to Northeastern, Eastern and Southern Spain. Don't forget Madrid - Valladolid - Burgos - Vitoria, as well as the Basque Y, will be part of the important corridor Madrid - Bilbao and partially part of the freight connection between Portugal and France.

I mean, a connection Madrid - Bilbao via Zaragoza could have also been explored, and it's not a bad idea, but it would leave a considerable amount of cities out of the main HSR route. One of the functions of HSR in Spain is to better connect regions which have traditionally had awful connections with the rest of the country due to our geography, like Galicia, Asturias or, to a lesser extent, the Basque Country.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 05:02 PM   #3499
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Again as I said all these lines are useful and good to have, my objections is where to give the priority. Albacete is not that small but also can't compared to cities like Velencia, Bilbao, Zaragosa, Barcelona etc. which they need much more the high speed connections to each other. Plus those high speed services to big cities can be much more profitable when in operation and can help financially to build new high speed lines in second place to small cities like Albacete.

High speed trains are more comparable to the airplane than to the classic conventional trains. Most important is to serve big populations in big metropolitan areas for moving from point A to point B rather than passing through a considerable amount of cities. A Bilbao-Vitoria-Logrono-Zaragoza line in 2015 followed by a Madrid-Valladolid-Leon and a Madrid-Galicia line in 2020 can give much more than a Madrid-Valladolid-Leon and a Madrid-Zamora in 2015 followed by the Madrid-Burgos-Basque Y in 2020 or later.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 05:13 PM   #3500
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One advantage train has got over plane is that it can joins small-medium cities and plane will never. This is... it will be impossible to join Albacete (or Ciudad Real or Valladolid...) by plane with Madrid. We would remain buses and regional trains or so.

How many people use this service?. Really it will not deserve to make an own line but it deserves to call there because a lot of people will move from there. As said... not many people but no alternatives and short distances (thus more passengers)

And when we have a A-B-C line, the train will be fine if it is full from A to C... but if you do not sell all tickets... A-B + B-C sum up too.

About Madrid-Bilbao, it will be faster via Valladolid always. Nowadays a Madrid-Irun is a little faster via Calatayud (not entering in Zaragoza) than via Valladolid, and in summer, Malaga-Bilbao trains go via Zaragoza to avoid changing gauge several times. First year they made non-stop from Tudela to Calatayud but they preferred to call at Zaragoza. It would be 20 minutes more but the number of passenger from this station (even to Bilbao or to Malaga) worths a call even journey is longer.
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