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Old January 12th, 2016, 05:48 PM   #3501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
One advantage train has got over plane is that it can joins small-medium cities and plane will never. This is... it will be impossible to join Albacete (or Ciudad Real or Valladolid...) by plane with Madrid. We would remain buses and regional trains or so.

How many people use this service?. Really it will not deserve to make an own line but it deserves to call there because a lot of people will move from there. As said... not many people but no alternatives and short distances (thus more passengers)

And when we have a A-B-C line, the train will be fine if it is full from A to C... but if you do not sell all tickets... A-B + B-C sum up too.

About Madrid-Bilbao, it will be faster via Valladolid always. Nowadays a Madrid-Irun is a little faster via Calatayud (not entering in Zaragoza) than via Valladolid, and in summer, Malaga-Bilbao trains go via Zaragoza to avoid changing gauge several times. First year they made non-stop from Tudela to Calatayud but they preferred to call at Zaragoza. It would be 20 minutes more but the number of passenger from this station (even to Bilbao or to Malaga) worths a call even journey is longer.
A Madrid-Bilbao, via Valladolid will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Segovia: 60.000
Valladolid: 400.000
Burgos: 200.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000

Total: 8.410.000 (approximately) and most of the traffic will be between Madrid and Bilbao, the biggest and most industrialised areas.

A Bilbao-Zaragoza line will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Barcelona: 5.500.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000
Zaragoza: 800.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Logrono: 200.000

Total: 14.250.000 (approximately).

And the most important is the main traffic will not be just between Madrid and Bilbao but there will be considerable high traffic between Barcelona and Bilbao and between Zaragoza and Bilbao.

Even if the journey time between Madrid and Bilbao in the first case is a little bit shorter (not that much) the benefits in the second case are obvious! it is not that the line of the first case is not useful at all and should not be built but which of the two lines would you give the priority to build first?
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Old January 12th, 2016, 07:46 PM   #3502
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You are only talking about Madrid - Bilbao, but let's not forget that the common (and most expensive) stretch Madrid - Olmedo junction - (Valladolid) is also used by Madrid - Vigo, Madrid - Coruña, Madrid - Gijón, Madrid - Santander, Madrid - Irún and Madrid - Salamanca trains.

I mean, then you need to add the population of all these regions to your example if you add the populations of Madrid and Barcelona to the other one via Zaragoza.

And that's because all aforementioned trains have gradually been benefiting from the HSL Madrid - Valladolid since its opening in 2007, considerably reducing travel times thanks to Alvia services partially using the HSL even if HSR still doesn't reach the regions of the Northern coast.

That's the main benefit of HSR compared to planes, even if in Spain there's a gauge break, which now can be solved thanks to gauge changers.


In any event, I want again to remark the importance of HSR to both Málaga and Alicante (even if they're not among the biggest Spanish cities), as they're both very important coastal destinations for Madrid inhabitants. I mean, both cities have important metro areas and lots of HSR users, but you can't forget the importance of tourism for their economy, especially the thousands of tourists from Madrid who flee their city in August in order to go to the beach.

Each country has its own characteristics and it's really difficult to analyze the pros and cons of our HSR system without taking into account elements other than population figures (which are also important, of course).
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Old January 12th, 2016, 09:17 PM   #3503
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I was wondering... if they resumed the Sevilla-Granada HSR, and extended it to Almeria, would it be quicker to travel (when eveyrthing is complete in these corridors, hypothetically) from Valencia to Sevilla via Almería, or via Madrid (not exactly Madrid, but the junctions of both lines)
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Old January 12th, 2016, 09:50 PM   #3504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
A Madrid-Bilbao, via Valladolid will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Segovia: 60.000
Valladolid: 400.000
Burgos: 200.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000

Total: 8.410.000 (approximately) and most of the traffic will be between Madrid and Bilbao, the biggest and most industrialised areas.

A Bilbao-Zaragoza line will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Barcelona: 5.500.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000
Zaragoza: 800.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Logrono: 200.000

Total: 14.250.000 (approximately).

And the most important is the main traffic will not be just between Madrid and Bilbao but there will be considerable high traffic between Barcelona and Bilbao and between Zaragoza and Bilbao.

Even if the journey time between Madrid and Bilbao in the first case is a little bit shorter (not that much) the benefits in the second case are obvious! it is not that the line of the first case is not useful at all and should not be built but which of the two lines would you give the priority to build first?

Obviously, Zaragoza train station is a hub in the northeast. Whilst HSL between Zaragoza and anywhere in west is not built, several trains joins there with AVE Madrid-Barcelona.

But surely, if the company can fill a train point to point, they will.

This is... if they want to reach Bilbao, they will do it towards the faster way.

Another issue is the possibility of other journeys, not point to point.

After building a tunnel (almost compulsory for joining a wide area) between Madrid and Segovia... easiest way is through Valladolid, obviously. Remember that, away from cities, construction costing in Spain is really cheap compared with other countries.


Nevertheless, have a glance to this page. Set Zaragoza and you will see next 24h flights.

(nowadays, only three ones, one right now, two for tomorrow. That's all!)

Guess the importance of the station then...

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/infovuelos/es/
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:27 PM   #3505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
You are only talking about Madrid - Bilbao, but let's not forget that the common (and most expensive) stretch Madrid - Olmedo junction - (Valladolid) is also used by Madrid - Vigo, Madrid - Coruña, Madrid - Gijón, Madrid - Santander, Madrid - Irún and Madrid - Salamanca trains.

I mean, then you need to add the population of all these regions to your example if you add the populations of Madrid and Barcelona to the other one via Zaragoza.

And that's because all aforementioned trains have gradually been benefiting from the HSL Madrid - Valladolid since its opening in 2007, considerably reducing travel times thanks to Alvia services partially using the HSL even if HSR still doesn't reach the regions of the Northern coast.

That's the main benefit of HSR compared to planes, even if in Spain there's a gauge break, which now can be solved thanks to gauge changers.
I could say the same for routes like Tarragona-Bilbao, Lerida-Bilbao, Huesca-Bilbao plus many other cities in Aragon, Catalonia, Basque country, Navara and around that currently are not located on High speed rail paths but they can benefit from a Bilbao-Zaragoza line either with Alvia trains or with future new AVE spurs due to an easy access to this line (e.g. Pamplona, San Sebastian etc). Not to mention the traffic coming from the Spanish-French boarder... On purpose I didn´t mention them since I wanted to focus on the big industrial areas which I think have the most influence to the High speed rail traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
In any event, I want again to remark the importance of HSR to both Málaga and Alicante (even if they're not among the biggest Spanish cities), as they're both very important coastal destinations for Madrid inhabitants. I mean, both cities have important metro areas and lots of HSR users, but you can't forget the importance of tourism for their economy, especially the thousands of tourists from Madrid who flee their city in August in order to go to the beach.

Each country has its own characteristics and it's really difficult to analyze the pros and cons of our HSR system without taking into account elements other than population figures (which are also important, of course).
For Málaga I fully agree with you, since there was already the Madrid-Seville line it was the right decicion as a next step to connect Málaga directly with Madrid by using the same main axis. As for Alicante as I said the priority should have been the connection to Valencia and the extension of the Mediterranean corridor prior to a dedicated Alicante-Madrid line which at the end of the day for the city of Alicante and the tourist spots around is not making much difference compared to a route via Valencia.

Last edited by clickgr; January 12th, 2016 at 10:33 PM.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:39 PM   #3506
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I think... in next century we do not expect to have a Bilbao-Huesca
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:47 PM   #3507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I think... in next century we do not expect to have a Bilbao-Huesca
I meant the route Bilbao-Huesca via Zaragoza not a new line.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:58 PM   #3508
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Huesca has 50.000 people only.

It would be enough to have a Bilbao-anywhere calling at Zaragoza and a good link to Huesca
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:59 PM   #3509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Nevertheless, have a glance to this page. Set Zaragoza and you will see next 24h flights.

(nowadays, only three ones, one right now, two for tomorrow. That's all!)

Guess the importance of the station then...

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/infovuelos/es/
Zaragoza is less than 2 hours away by AVE trains from both 2 country's biggest international airports, Barajas and El Prat. The biggest mistake so far is that they haven't built AVE stations right on those airports and the international traveler with destination Zaragoza depends on the city transport from the airports to the city's train stations. When they build such a stations (i think it is in the plans, at least for Barcelona) i do not think Zaragosa will need many flights.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 11:00 PM   #3510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Huesca has 50.000 people only.

It would be enough to have a Bilbao-anywhere calling at Zaragoza and a good link to Huesca
Yes that is what I am saying.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 11:43 PM   #3511
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That Bilbao-Pamplona-Huesca line could make sense in a context of a Zaragoza-Huesca-Toulouse line.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 11:52 PM   #3512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
Zaragoza is less than 2 hours away by AVE trains from both 2 country's biggest international airports, Barajas and El Prat. The biggest mistake so far is that they haven't built AVE stations right on those airports and the international traveler with destination Zaragoza depends on the city transport from the airports to the city's train stations. When they build such a stations (i think it is in the plans, at least for Barcelona) i do not think Zaragosa will need many flights.
And conversely... Zaragoza airport fees are really low and could be a cool low-cost airport.

And.... look at how easy had it been linking HSR with the airport

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.64537.../data=!3m1!1e3

I think it was in 2009 when last direct flight to Madrid dissapeared after more than 50 years with a daily services (and several flights per year). One of last flights was just a Madrid-Zaragoza-Frankfurt (there was always a Zaragoza-Frankfurt and it departed from Madrid, therefore, several people took it... not to go to Madrid centre but to shuttle with another flight)
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Old January 13th, 2016, 12:12 AM   #3513
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That Bilbao-Pamplona-Huesca line could make sense in a context of a Zaragoza-Huesca-Toulouse line.
It is not only what makes sense, it is also how much will cost. A high speed line between Huesca and Pamplona will be extremely expensive due to the very mountenous terrain. It will be much better to invest on a modern electricified low speed rail Huesca-Jaca-Pamplona instead.

The cost of a Huesca-Toulouse HSL is also very expensive but this is another story since the potential for trade and transportation for both Spain and France is very significant. Plus Zaragoza will get access to one more international airport, the Toulouse airport.

Last edited by clickgr; January 13th, 2016 at 12:28 AM.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 12:26 AM   #3514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
And conversely... Zaragoza airport fees are really low and could be a cool low-cost airport.

And.... look at how easy had it been linking HSR with the airport

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.64537.../data=!3m1!1e3
Huesca also has an airport and with this logic maybe Huesca is even better option as a low-cost airport since it serves both Zaragoza and the tourist and ski destinations on the mountains of Aragon. However in reality never worked out this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I think it was in 2009 when last direct flight to Madrid dissapeared after more than 50 years with a daily services (and several flights per year). One of last flights was just a Madrid-Zaragoza-Frankfurt (there was always a Zaragoza-Frankfurt and it departed from Madrid, therefore, several people took it... not to go to Madrid centre but to shuttle with another flight)
Again if there were AVE connection right at Madrid airport all these issues will be solved for Zaragoza and any other city easily connected to Madrid by AVE trains.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 01:48 PM   #3515
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Madrid-Galicia HSL

News!

From February 1, 2016, all Alvia trains on the route between Madrid and Galicia will start using the HSL between the Olmedo junction and Zamora.
That day the Zamora gauge changer will start operating, after passing its tests.

Service will be doubled, from three services per direction plus one night train, to six plus one night train.

One of them is a new Alvia service Santiago-Madrid and return.
This train allows people living in Santiago de Compostela to spend the day in Madrid and return the evening for the first time.

The best travel times will go as follows:

Madrid-Corunna 5h 33min (from the current 6h 03min)

Madrid-Ferrol via Santiago 6h 49min (from the current 7h 36min)

Madrid-Lugo 6h 21min (from the current 6h 47min)

Madrid-Ourense 4h 17min (from the current 4h 40min)

Madrid-Pontevedra 6h 21min (from the current 6h 45min)

Madrid-Santiago de Compostela 5 h (from the current 5h 30min)

Madrid-Vigo Guixar 5h 49min (from the current 6h 12min)

Source: press release by Renfe (in Spanish)
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Old February 25th, 2016, 01:07 PM   #3516
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Update | State of works.

The level of execution in the works of new HSL's in Spain seems to have halted a bit lately.

Here's a list of lines and the state of works:

-Zamora-Pedralba-Ourense (Madrid-Galicia HSL). Works keep up, slowly. Won't open in two years at best. Probably won't open in one go, either.

-Venta de Baños/Palencia-Burgos (Madrid-Hendaye HSL). Works keep up, slowly. Won't open in 2016. Would probably open in 2017.

-Valencia-Xativa-La Encina HSL. Apparently halted, although very advanced since several years.

-Monforte del Cid-Elche-San Isidro HSL and upgrade San Isidro-Orihuela-Murcia (Madrid-Alicante-Murcia HSL). Advancing, but slowing down. Won't open before the end of 2016 unless some change of priorities happens. Faces also nimby opposition in the city of Murcia (neighbours who want the line underground and nothing else).

-Antequera Santa Ana-Granada HSL. Advancing, but slowing down. Won't open before the end of 2016 unless some change of priorities happens.
Quite likely, this will be the next HSL to open, but this could change... or not.

-Basque Y (Vitoria-Bilbao-San Sebastian). Advancing, but very slowly. Won't open in three years at best.

-Murcia-Lorca-Almeria HSL. Halted. Opening date unknown. Restart of works unknown. Not advanced.

-Navalmoral-Caceres-Merida-Badajoz (Madrid-Extremadura-Lisbon HSL). Halted? Not sure.

-HSL connection Madrid Chamartín-Madrid Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco. Advancing, but slowly. I don't think it will open in 2016.

-Connection Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos (Barcelona-Valencia line). Advancing, but slowly. I don't think it will open in 2016, at least not all of it?
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Last edited by 437.001; February 25th, 2016 at 01:24 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2016, 08:15 PM   #3517
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Basically not particularly likely that anything will open this year...

I was reading elsewhere that all tunnels on Galicia line except the new Padornelo bore have been either broken through already or will be in the next month or two.
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Old February 26th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #3518
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Quote:
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Basically not particularly likely that anything will open this year...
Could be. After the openings of the HSL's to Leon and Zamora, they have a bit more air to breathe, because they also need to buy new rolling stock, they have more and more of a shortage in that aspect.

The next openings, or the most advanced new sections, are the following (in this order, which could be altered, but not a lot):

-Antequera Santa Ana-Granada.
-Monforte del Cid-San Isidro (+ upgrade San Isidro-Orihuela-Murcia).
-Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona (perhaps first Vandellos-Vilaseca, then the rest, or perhaps in just one go).
-Madrid Chamartín-Madrid Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco (without the underground platforms at Atocha).
-Valencia-Xativa-La Encina.
-Venta de Baños/Palencia-Burgos.

Then the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I was reading elsewhere that all tunnels on Galicia line except the new Padornelo bore have been either broken through already or will be in the next month or two.
Yes, they're putting most efforts on the missing parts of the Galicia HSL.

With the last new and upgraded sections (Santiago-Vigo, Olmedo-Zamora), travel times have been significantly cut, there are more services and more passengers.

But there's still a lot of room to grow in passengers between Galicia and the rest of the country, probably more than elsewhere, so that's why they're putting that amount of money on it. Besides, once the Galicia HSL completely open, a big sigh of relief will be heard (it's a massive investment).
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Old February 26th, 2016, 03:22 PM   #3519
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-Antequera Santa Ana-Granada.
Will completion of this section allow Malaga-Granada services or only Cordoba/Madrid-Granada? I think the former would be massively popular with tourists from Central and Northern Europe. Malaga is the best connected airport in Andalusia and Alhambra is the best known place to see.
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Old February 26th, 2016, 10:06 PM   #3520
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Renfe is expected to create the following new services using the Granada HSL:

- AVE Madrid-Cordoba-Granada.
- AVE Barcelona-Cordoba-Granada.
- Avant Seville-Cordoba-Granada.
- Avant Malaga-Granada.
- Alvia Madrid-Cordoba-Granada-Guadix-Almeria.

Only that we do not know wether the gauge changer at Granada to allow services to Guadix and Almeria, and the Antequera chord to allow direct services Malaga-Granada, will be ready at the same time the Granada HSL opens.

The Alvia services to Almeria would probably be with class S-730, as there are no current openly plans to electrify the section between Granada and Huéneja.
We do not know wether the electrification between Huéneja and Almeria (3 kV) will be renovated, right now it is in very bad state and no train uses it.
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