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Old May 23rd, 2016, 01:51 AM   #3601
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Why don't they build some office buildings near/around the station, then?
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:12 AM   #3602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Madrid-Atocha is a wonderful station, but Barcelona-Sants is not nice at all... It was built in the early 80s as the new central station of the city and it properly fulfilled its task for 20 years. However, since the Madrid - Barcelona HSL was finally completed in 2008, the station has been suffering from congestion, as it wasn't expanded accordingly.
I would say Barcelona-Sants and Zaragoza-Delicias are exactly in the opposite situation.

The Sants, at least the AVE section, is too small to accommodate the needed facilities, sometimes there are big cues just to get in because of the lack of space in the entrance, and the cafeterias inside do not have enough space and tables for the customers during the pick hours. The Delicias in contrast has plenty of empty space with no facilities. It is a nice modern empty cold building with no life, while the Sants is an ugly overcrowded old building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
As said, few people shuttle there and I would guess few people arrive more than 20 minutes in advance. Last time I was in the cafeteria it wasn't full at all.
A few times coming from Huesca by car I had to wait inside the station for around an hour and it was damn boring. In the winter it was like a torture with these temperatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
By the way, should anyone arrive to Zaragoza-Delicias, check for commuter train to Zaragoza-Goya. Providing you go to city centre, even you get a taxi you can save time if waiting time is not long. From Zaragoza-Goya you can get a taxi (faster than from Delicias) or tramway (run every five minutes in weekdays)
Are there any plans to extend the new tram lines in Zaragoza to connect the Delicias station with the city center. This would be very helpful for some visitors with long waiting times to spend sometime in the city instead of waiting inside this empty station.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Why don't they build some office buildings near/around the station, then?
That would be a very good idea. Maybe some nice office skyscrapers with restaurants and cafeterias on the ground floors can give some life to the station and the area around.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 11:26 AM   #3603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Why don't they build some office buildings near/around the station, then?
Sorry, have not found better image than this one

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7249


There are seven (or eight??) blocks for buildings and offices.

The barely blue building is a recent extension hospital. Old one (2 km away more or less) was really old and they build that one. It is only to visit doctor but quite often to see these kind of buildings apart of the own hospitals (there are several ones more in the city).
Away, they little tower with a circle building (a former fish market) is a public centre for all kind of activities and can be hired by any assocition.

In the middle, the block was sold to build an appartment block and it was so expensive that made rise the whole number of blocks remaining and stopped all operation.
We have a thread (forgotten but exists)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=400019

And all blocks you see there.... were supossed to be sold before crisis.

About offices, just in front of the station, in the other side of the river we have the former buildings of international exhibition in 2008. They have refurbished some of them and you can fin administrations as well as some big companies (and all related with justice incluiding 60ish courts) around. It doesn't worth to build offices there when 1 km away, easy to go even on foot, you have many, many buildings for offices.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 11:33 AM   #3604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
A few times coming from Huesca by car I had to wait inside the station for around an hour and it was damn boring. In the winter it was like a torture with these temperatures.
I do know... It is really boring and cold in winter. At least there are some booths with heating for waiting... but I will never say it is perfect at all.
The building is nice nevertheless and when I read other forumers saying it is the perfect example I try not to laugh....


Quote:
Are there any plans to extend the new tram lines in Zaragoza to connect the Delicias station with the city center. This would be very helpful for some visitors with long waiting times to spend sometime in the city instead of waiting inside this empty station.
No, there is not. Next line will be around Av. Madrid.
The problem is that there is one train per hour to Madrid, to Barcelona and some peak hours to other directions.


As I say.... you need a line to have a full tramway (230 passengers, more than at AVE) every five minutes in peak hours to worth. In other conditions, bus should remain.
Should it be possible to have the station as an intermediate call (and therefore, the same line would be good for people living away and for passengers to station), it could run, but after station there is one shopping centre and few population.

Anyway, buses number 51 and 34 will link you to city centre with same fare and will not take longer (or if you want to see suburbs, both circle lines join station too)


Quote:
That would be a very good idea. Maybe some nice office skyscrapers with restaurants and cafeterias on the ground floors can give some life to the station and the area around.
Hotel was closed down and it is supossed to be re-opened.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:26 AM   #3605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Lleida 488 700 + 10%
Camp de Tarragona 504,500 + 4%
Barcelona-Sants 5,817,000 + 34%
Girona 468 800 + 167%
Figueres 245,700 + 104%
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The figures of the Catalan stations are quite surprising to me: Camp de Tarragona station manages to get more AVE passengers than Lleida or Girona even though the former is a station in the middle of the fields 10 km from the city centre and the other two stations are located in the city centres.
This is because 237.000 people live in the two main cities that serves Camp de Tarragona station while 140.000 people do it in Lleida. So I would say that both Lleida is getting good numbers and Camp de Tarragona isn't catching all passengers it could attract.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:33 AM   #3606
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No.... it is not!!!!

It is due to they are numbers of AVE services, Avant services (all Lleida-Barcelona) aren't there.... for instance

That's why Toledo has only data of 2011 (Toledo-Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete) and 2014 (some Barcelona-Toledo). Rest ones are Avant

Chamartin has a very small traffic and, obviously, similar to Valladolid (Segovia has some traffic too)


Galicia hasn't any traffic at all. Orense-Santiago-La Coruña is Avant, not AVE.......


Not full statistics at all


(and passengers in AVE trains at Calatayud with an Avant ticket I wonder how they count)
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:36 AM   #3607
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How good are the bus connections from Camp de Tarragona to the city centre?

If its not solved already then the remote location of the station could be alleviated cheaply by improvement of such connection. Something like a guaranteed and free (for AVE ticket holders) express bus to the station arriving 10 min before each AVE train and leaving 5 min after each train arrival (waiting for late trains if necessary). It might actually pay off in extra train tickets sold.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 12:38 AM   #3608
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A nightmare sometimes
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Old May 24th, 2016, 06:15 PM   #3609
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A well-known Spanish railway magazine has published the real figures of daily passengers in the high speed rail network; that is to say, considering not only AVE services but also AV- City, Alvia, Altaria and Avant services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlucar-Playa View Post
There are only 3 stations with less than 100 passengers per day, of which only Requena-Utiel is a newly-built station for HSR. Villanueva de Córdoba station already existed since 1992 but it only opened to passenger services a couple of years ago, after a very low investment was made, and Tardienta isn't really a HSR station, it's just a station on a classic line in a very small town where Madrid - Huesca services enter the mixed gauge section and someone weirdly decided to make AVE services stop there.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 06:55 PM   #3610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
How good are the bus connections from Camp de Tarragona to the city centre?

If its not solved already then the remote location of the station could be alleviated cheaply by improvement of such connection. Something like a guaranteed and free (for AVE ticket holders) express bus to the station arriving 10 min before each AVE train and leaving 5 min after each train arrival (waiting for late trains if necessary). It might actually pay off in extra train tickets sold.
I've got to go now, but let's just say for now that Camp de Tarragona is not a new station at all.
The old classic line in which it lies was closed in 1990, and reopening it could solve many of its problems of bad links.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 07:15 PM   #3611
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I said missing many travelers, even just counting AV:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
The article tells only passengers in AVE trains, Coruña and Orense not even appear.
For example, in 2014 Chamartin 3.244.833 had long-distance travelers (OFE page 66), Segovia had 779,571 travelers on Avant and 37.778 on Alvia only to Madrid, Toledo had 1,259,400 in Avant (page 106).
This is what happens when data is read without knowing the subject.

By the way, the sum is 35,129,000 (the total of "up and down"), which are 17,564,500 travelers, Total AVE passengers according Fomento and OFE in 2014 it was 17,966,950 so do not coincide, and the difference is no less than 402,450 travelers.

Complete list:
...
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Old May 24th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #3612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
A well-known Spanish railway magazine has published the real figures of daily passengers in the high speed rail network; that is to say, considering not only AVE services but also AV- City, Alvia, Altaria and Avant services.



There are only 3 stations with less than 100 passengers per day, of which only Requena-Utiel is a newly-built station for HSR. Villanueva de Córdoba station already existed since 1992 but it only opened to passenger services a couple of years ago, after a very low investment was made, and Tardienta isn't really a HSR station, it's just a station on a classic line in a very small town where Madrid - Huesca services enter the mixed gauge section and someone weirdly decided to make AVE services stop there.
The idea behind the Tardienta station is to have connections with the old line Huesca-Lerida-Barcelona so it can provide access to the AVE for other small towns in between like Monzón and Barbastro. Apparently this doesn't make much sense since people from these towns could access the high-speed line either directly in Huesca or in Lerida by taking the local train. The Tardienta station adds additional time to the Zaragoza-Huesca high-speed schedule without any obvious benefit.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 09:14 PM   #3613
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And given its stunning passenger numbers it seems almost nobody is taking advantage of that option. Of course, the fact that there's only a daily Madrid - Huesca service (and the same in the opposite way), with the exception of Firdays and Sundays, when there are two, doesn't help.

I assume, of course, that local trains are not even scheduled to provide good transfers in Tardienta for those passengers willing to change trains there.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 09:47 PM   #3614
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In Tardienta it is changing from a single track in standard gauge to another mixed gauge (standard-iberian), so driving at 40 km/h and then at 60.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 10:02 PM   #3615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
In Tardienta it is changing from a single track in standard gauge to another mixed gauge (standard-iberian), so driving at 40 km/h and then at 60.
Still, the fact that someone built a station there (or an AVE line to Huesca for that matter) is just pork barrel investment politics.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 10:15 PM   #3616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robi_damian View Post
Still, the fact that someone built a station there (or an AVE line to Huesca for that matter) is just pork barrel investment politics.
The station was there already. The mistake is that they made the AVE line to make a small deviation in order to pass through Tardienta instead of following the straight line Zaragoza-Huesca which is the most logical option.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 10:44 PM   #3617
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There are even some vague plans to skip Tardienta station with the construction of a straighter line, which would also entail adding a new standard gauge single track to the existing mixed gauge single track line between Tardienta and Huesca:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlucar-Playa View Post
Estudio informativo para el aumento de la capacidad de la Linea de Alta Velocidad Tardienta-Huesca expuesto para información pública en el sitio web del Ministerio de Fomento. Se contemplan cuatro alternativas de trazado, para velocidades máximas de 350, 300, 250 y 220 km/h respectivamente.

More information (and graphics) on the Spanish thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1812801
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Old May 24th, 2016, 11:00 PM   #3618
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If one day they decide to extend the line towards France this will be a necessary modification to the existing part.
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Old May 24th, 2016, 11:19 PM   #3619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
The idea behind the Tardienta station is to have connections with the old line Huesca-Lerida-Barcelona so it can provide access to the AVE for other small towns in between like Monzón and Barbastro. Apparently this doesn't make much sense since people from these towns could access the high-speed line either directly in Huesca or in Lerida by taking the local train. The Tardienta station adds additional time to the Zaragoza-Huesca high-speed schedule without any obvious benefit.

When they built line to Huesca it was.... one single track Zaragoza-Tardienta and a mix track Tardienta-Huesca

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.12414.../data=!3m1!1e3

you will see THREE rails. Left one is used for all trains. Right inner one for AVE, Right outer one for freight and regional trains.

Until not so long, after Zaragoza trains could cross themselves only at Tardienta. They must go 30 km/h there so a call doesn't take a lot of time at all....

It was required to have somewhere to let AVE train to cross and it was exactly in Tardienta station. Therefore they can call there using platforms.

Here you have the point where both lines (classic and international gauge) links themselves.

Not far away it has been built one new cross point
https://www.google.es/maps/@41.99619.../data=!3m1!1e3
Therefore, one Tardienta international gauge will be shifted to classic gauge (it is enough with that point).


And as you can see, Tardienta is a quite small village where trains called there due to it was the nearest point to Huesca. A long time ago, people shuttle to other trains, and not so far I remember people going there (for instance Barcelona-Cadiz or Barcelona-Vigo had a call at Tardienta for Huesca passengers).

The only train to Huesca had a call too (it called at Tardienta, Huesca, Ayerbe, Sabiñanigo and ended at Jaca indeed). When HSL was opened they offered an Altaria (nowadays AVE) train and a regional Zaragoza-Jaca train with the same calls that formerly. So... call at Tardienta.

It is a small village, not often to take a long distance train (I would guess that sometimes a group takes it and it counts for all the week) and station is so big as this building!!

https://www.google.es/maps/place/222...374372!6m1!1e1


I guess it is the only AVE station where you CANNOT buy a ticket (you may have a return ticket or buy via internet because in the office they can sell only regional tickets!!!!!).
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Old May 24th, 2016, 11:49 PM   #3620
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All these calls at Tardienta for train connections and crossing made sense before the high-speed line was built. Now with the double track high-speed line there is no need for crossing point and the connections can easily be done at Huesca station.
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