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Old May 25th, 2016, 12:30 AM   #3621
arctic_carlos
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There's indeed a need for a crossing point because the HSL between Zaragoza-Miraflores and Tardienta was built with just a single standard gauge track (next to the single Iberian gauge track of the classic line).

But the real "bottleneck" (if we can employ this term for a line with that low number of trains) is between Tardienta and Huesca, as they didn't even built a specific track for high speed trains; they just added a third rail in standard gauge to the existing single Iberian gauge track so as to allow AVE services reaching Huesca.

Maybe you thought the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL had double track, at least between Zaragoza and Tardienta, but there are actually two single tracks (one in each gauge). Hopefully, when Spain starts regauging its rail network, Zaragoza - Tardienta will become a normal double-tracked line.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 01:18 AM   #3622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
All these calls at Tardienta for train connections and crossing made sense before the high-speed line was built. Now with the double track high-speed line there is no need for crossing point and the connections can easily be done at Huesca station.
It is simple track only.
At Tardienta they must decrease to 30 km/h.
Nothing would happen if no call (or a new traject avoiding this village) but surely it doesn't delay trains.

Investments were null. Station ex usted, just changed gauge in one platform
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Old May 25th, 2016, 10:25 AM   #3623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Maybe you thought the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL had double track, at least between Zaragoza and Tardienta, but there are actually two single tracks (one in each gauge). Hopefully, when Spain starts regauging its rail network, Zaragoza - Tardienta will become a normal double-tracked line.
Yes that's what I thought since I see two parallel lines between Zaragoza - Tardienta. I didn't know the one was Iberian gauge. Thanks. But still with such a few AVE schedules between Zaragoza and Huesca there is no need for crossing at Tardienta. They can just be scheduled in different times.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
It is simple track only.
At Tardienta they must decrease to 30 km/h.
Nothing would happen if no call (or a new traject avoiding this village) but surely it doesn't delay trains.

Investments were null. Station ex usted, just changed gauge in one platform
I know. It is such annoying when coming from Madrid you travel such a long distance up to Zaragoza in less than 1h 30min, and then you need close to an hour to reach Huesca due to these stops and the 30 km/h speed!
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Old May 25th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #3624
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Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
Yes that's what I thought since I see two parallel lines between Zaragoza - Tardienta. I didn't know the one was Iberian gauge. Thanks. But still with such a few AVE schedules between Zaragoza and Huesca there is no need for crossing at Tardienta. They can just be scheduled in different times.

Not so easy.

Huesca-Madrid departs at 8:15 (almost all time has had same time departing from Huesca to reach 9:00 from Zaragoza. Conversely it has shifted several times from Madrid but it is a long time it departs at 19:05).

First train departing from Zaragoza to Huesca arrives before 8:15 and second one quite, quite later.
At first, there were three Avant trains on international gauge Zaragoza-Huesca and schedules were ready to cross at Tardienta. One minute delay of any of both trains, delay for the other one.

In addition, at Tardienta we may consider three regional trains coming from Lerida too, later freight trains that run only on day, not on night..... and it is not easy.

Infrastructure is so poor that I made a proposal for trains Zaragoza-Canfranc and only six daily trains could run. On weekends we have three regional trains and a freight one can run. Then.... a so long line and lack of capacity.

There was a special train last summer and it crossed with a Canfranc-Zaragoza at La Peña, being the first time two trains crossed there and having to move an agent for that cross


One more hint.... Huesca-Madrid train, as rules says, is the only AVE that will depart only after station manager use his flag and whistle!!!!!!!!!!

It is not necessary to use depending on traffic software (not installed there) and in first departure station would be mandatory. This is why at Tardienta it is different..... but everyday (twice on weekends) AVE's depart from Huesca after driver listen the whistle!!!!
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Old May 25th, 2016, 11:28 AM   #3625
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The point is more of "why did anyone think to buid an AVE line to Huesca to begin with?". Was it really worth it. I think a connecting service at Delicias on the classical line, operated by a short EMU would have been enough. I imagine it did not particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things, but surely even that money would have been better used to speed up a more useful route like VdB-Burgos.

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Old May 25th, 2016, 11:42 AM   #3626
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It is matter of opinion. The same reason about why trains to Zaragoza and Barcelona departs from Atocha and not from Chamartin with a call in the airport and a link to commuter near Guadalajara, riding near R-2 motorway.

It would be a little more expensive and would require to join Seville and Barcelona lines but will have avoided a tunnel under Madrid.

This is same situation than in Paris.


Both "mistakes" or decissions were taken at same time.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 12:24 PM   #3627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robi_damian View Post
The point is more of "why did anyone think to buid an AVE line to Huesca to begin with?". Was it really worth it. I think a connecting service at Delicias on the classical line, operated by a short EMU would have been enough. I imagine it did not particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things, but surely even that money would have been better used to speed up a more useful route like VdB-Burgos.
For many reasons. At the time Spain started to design its brand new HSR network back in the late 80's it was not yet defined whether the first connection with the French high speed network would be in Catalonia via the Mediteranian Corridor or in Aragon via the Trans-Pyrenean Central Corridor. Both axes had to be developed and prepared for potential further connections, the decision for the Mediteranian Corridor was taken years later.

Another reason is that although Huesca is a small city, it serves as a capital of a relatively big Province with many smaller cities and towns around and with significant agricultural production. The Province of Huesca is also a popular tourist destination especially at the side of the Pyrenees mountains with many crowded ski resorts during the winter time, many hotels and spa resorts and other traditional mountain villages, castles etc.

Another reason is the city of Jaca for many years was meant by the Spanish government to host the winter Olympic Games at some point, so any infrastructure towards there would be an added value for the biding process.

Of course local politicians always influence in decisions like this especially in one of the richest autonomous regions in Spain like Aragon.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 01:49 PM   #3628
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I'm afraid the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL was more a political concession to the province than a real strategic decision. At the time the line was planned it was clear the connection with France was going to be built via Barcelona. That's why the Zaragoza - Tardienta HSL was built as a single track spur off the main Madrid - Barcelona - France HSL, limited to 200 km/h. Had it been planned as a future international connection, it would have been built with other technical standards.

Besides, the scarce number of services using the line is good evidence of the lack of demand for AVE services Huesca has. It would have been wiser and cheaper to build a gauge changer in Zaragoza-Miraflores station for Alvia services Madrid - Huesca - (Jaca) instead of building a dedicated track between Zaragoza and Huesca and adding the third rail between Tardienta and Huesca.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 01:57 PM   #3629
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As you can see here, even until 2012 it was still not very clear which corridor will be given priority to.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 02:06 PM   #3630
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The only thing I can say is that the HSL between Barcelona and the French border opened in 2013, while the border crossing itself (Figueras - Perpignan international line) opened in 2010, both for passenger and freight trains.

This article you link (besides being politically biased) talks about a completely different thing: the need to select a corridor to receive EU funding for international freight transport. The main problem is that Spanish websites and newspapers often don't know about the subject and make a mess when trying to explain it. On top of that, Catalan politicians tried to make a political argument about the lack of investments in the Mediterranean Corridor by the Spanish government, forgetting that its international standard gauge HSR connection was up and running while nothing had been done on the other possible corridors.

Of course there are still many investments to be made in the Mediterranean corridor south of Barcelona to extend standard gauge and promote freight rail, but the reality is tjat currently the port of Barcelona is the only Spanish port with standard gauge rail access, since 2010.

But that's slightly off topic here.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 02:25 PM   #3631
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As it is now an Alvia service connecting Zaragoza with Huesca with no intermediate stops would make much more sense than the AVE service to Huesca moving with speeds of 30 km/h near Tardienta. I think the decision to put the AVE at first place to the Zaragoza-Huesca route was clearly political. However, the investment on a new line in international gauge had also a strategic aspect for the future plans on network expansion. The Tardienta station and the use of the existing path between Tardienta and Huesca was a temporary solution to quickly allow the AVE reaching Huesca. A temporary solution which ended up to become permanent.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 03:07 PM   #3632
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The use of the classic line between Tardienta and Huesca was also meant to be a test for mixed gauge technology in Spain. That technology hadn't previously been used in any commercial line, just in test lines.

In addition, there's another important technical reason why a gauge changer was not built in Zaragoza for possible Madrid - Huesca Alvia services. At the time it was decided that AVE had to reach Huesca (early 2000s), Alvia services didn't exist. Until 2006, when the technology used by Alvia trains to change gauge in a few minutes was introduced, Altaria trains which had to change gauge took around 20 minutes to do the whole process, as they also had to change engine. Moreover, Altaria services are limited to 200 km/h in HSL, while Alvia can reach 250 km/h.

I mean, the current travel times of AVE services Madrid - Huesca (300 km/h between Madrid and Zaragoza, 200 km/h between Zaragoza and Tardienta, 160 km/h between Tardienta and Huesca) wouldn't be considerably increased if an Alvia service existed instead. But the difference of travel times between an Altaria and an AVE service between Madrid and Huesca would be indeed considerable. At least 35-40 minutes more. So I guess this technical reason had to do with the political decision of building something similar to a standard gauge HSL.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #3633
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Have a look here, please

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.12670.../data=!3m1!1e3

Before HSL, there was a daily Madrid-Jaca.
When HSL opened, they closed this train and set up a daily Madrid-Huesca (later another one on weekends) and a Zaragoza-Jaca with the same calls than former Madrid-Jaca. It linked at Zaragoza with AVEs to/from Madrid (but to Madrid, 45 minutes waiting so not many saving time and much expensive from Jaca....)

Schedules changed, and nowadays Renfe offers you an assured connection Madrid-Jaca BY BUS!!!!!!!!. Instead of using their own trains (AVE+regional) they offer AVE + a bus from another company at Zaragoza!!!!!!


The point in the google image was a gauge changer. Zaragoza-Jaca regional train run over the HSL, later changed gauge (100 euro for the company every time it changed) and continued to Jaca (not to Canfranc, even if it is the most used station due to lack of direct buses to Zaragoza or Huesca). One or two years later they used only classic line and changer wasn't longer used any more!!.

If only they have had an assured link at Zaragoza and sold twin tickets Jaca-Zaragoza-Madrid or so, it could have more passengers.... but schedules were awful just for a Zaragoza-Jaca, the times with less demand!!!!.



I strongly agree that any solution avoiding Tardienta in the north side and two single tracks to Huesca would be the best solution.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 04:40 PM   #3634
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Since they decided to build international gauge line to Huesca, they should have done it the proper way, all the way straight line to Huesca, no stops, no deviations to pass through other existing stations. Otherwise there is no point to have high speed trains if it takes as long as the normal trains to get you there. Such a line doesn't necessarily need to be served by AVE, local trains from Huesca could simply offer regular and fast connections with the AVE Madrid-Barcelona schedules at Zaragoza Delicias. I am sure if the Huesca-Zaragoza line were more efficient in that way it would also had more traffic than it has now, with or without AVE service.

For example, many times while I am in Huesca I need to go to Zaragoza and come back to do some shopping on the same day. I never remember myself taking the train, I always take the car. The train is not much faster than the car and the schedules do not help to move easily between Huesca and Zaragoza. For those coming from Jaca or Monzon moving by train to Zaragoza I guess is even more complicated. If you could reach Zaragoza within 30 min with schedules let's say every 2-3 hours things would be very different in this route.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #3635
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I agree with you. Just only one hint..... trains on classic line can call at Goya station that gives a lot of opportunities. Bus doesn't (it calls near Portillo but never so close). High speed trains, even Avant only can at Delicias. That was why they decided to replace Avant for Regional ones. Centre to centre was same time.


From Monzon before HSL, all long distance trains hadn't any call or maybe only at Tardienta, weren't very expensive and took only one hour to Zaragoza-Portillo. Faster than by car due to no motorway, needed to go to Huesca and come back....
Jaca is another issue.

By the way, remember you have a good bus service Huesca-Zaragoza between same stations. If you do not fin a link via railway, try with bus. You will not wait so much.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 07:50 PM   #3636
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Antequera-Santa Ana - Granada HSL:

Works are very advanced between Antequera-Santa Ana and Archidona, as well as between Tocón and Granada.

Construction of a new station building in Granada is also starting to take shape, together with the refurbishment of the existing tracks to make room for new standard gauge tracks to be used by HSR.

However, works remain suspended in Loja until an agreement is reached between the contractor of the works and the government.

Map of the line (showing status of each section in 2011):



Source: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/LAV_Antequera_-_Granada

Pictures from the section between Antequera-Santa Ana and Archidona:

Between Tocón and Granada:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granaino202 View Post
Algunas imagenes de lo que os comentaba el otro día en Atarfe la catenaria ya puesta:







http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=2682
Granada station:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granaino202 View Post
Eso no es ninguna novedad ya...jeje, sabemos que la linea va a estar cortada hasta que no terminen las obras y las obras están paradas en Loja para empezar... asique es interminable.

Sin embargo en la estación de Granada va la cosa viento en popa, están empezando a poner la estructura de la terminal nueva...

Fotos de Pacheco moderador de ForoTrenes:





http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=2699
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Old July 31st, 2016, 08:54 PM   #3637
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Advanced, but still a long way off judging by some of those pictures... I'm also wondering what exactly is being built in those Granada station pictures with those concrete constructions.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 09:28 PM   #3638
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In the first picture you can see the new station building, which is being built at the end of the platforms. It will be built quite fast, as it's a cheap construction, given that Granada is supposed to get a brand-new underground train station someday (probably never). A new tram stop has been built just behind where the picture has been taken, so transfers between rail and tram will be very easy.

In the second picture you can see the foundations of the poles of the overhead electric lines.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 10:16 PM   #3639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
In the first picture you can see the new station building, which is being build at the end of the platforms. It will be built quite fast, as it's a cheap construction, given that Granada is supposed to get a brand-new underground train station someday (probably never).
I don't think it matters much or is really needed. This station will not be a through station anyway nor are the traffic levels expected to be epic. More important is that the eventual traffic timetable is well planed and with enough services. Actually wasn't it possible to just renovate the old station building? The white structure in photo's right?

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
A new tram stop has been built just behind where the picture has been taken, so transfers between rail and tram will be very easy.
That's really good and something that is missing in Sevilla albeit I hear there are some plans to rectify it there. Also the station itself is in a good location close to the old town and all the tourist attractions, but also easily accessible by road. Train traffic there could be a real success if people in charge are not stupid...

By the way is there a planed or existing suburban train network in Granada? Judging from a map looks unlikely...
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Old August 1st, 2016, 01:12 AM   #3640
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I don't think it matters much or is really needed. This station will not be a through station anyway nor are the traffic levels expected to be epic. More important is that the eventual traffic timetable is well planed and with enough services. Actually wasn't it possible to just renovate the old station building? The white structure in photo's right?
I don't think an underground station in Granada is necessary, actually I think it would be a waste of money given the location of the station in the urban structure of the city, where railway doesn't represent a barrier at all. If any, a couple of new underpasses for pedestrians and cars can be added at some points, but that's all what is necessary nowadays. It's just another example of the stupid railways-need-to-be-underground-everywhere fever that has been devastating Spain in the last few decades.

However, the old building is not prepared to handle the expected levels of traffic with the opening of the HSL. They're not going to be epic, I agree, but the old building is way too small. IMHO, Granada will get a reasonably sized station given its size and importance. Neither a huge and empty white elephant like Zaragoza Delicias nor a crappy small provisional station like León. Here you can see how everything will look like once the works are completed (where it says "metro" it should say tram, but you know how politicians are):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
That's really good and something that is missing in Sevilla albeit I hear there are some plans to rectify it there. Also the station itself is in a good location close to the old town and all the tourist attractions, but also easily accessible by road. Train traffic there could be a real success if people in charge are not stupid...
Yes, fortunately the current mayor of Sevilla wants the tram line to be extended to Santa Justa station, the main railway hub of the city. Let's see if he's able to defeat nimbysm.

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By the way is there a planed or existing suburban train network in Granada? Judging from a map looks unlikely...
No, there are just regional rail services towards Almería, Sevilla and Algeciras that don't stop in any town near Granada because most existing stations were closed long time ago or simply were never built at the right places. It's quite sad because there are at least four towns (Pinos Puente, Atarfe, Maracena and Albolote) which could have benefited from commuter rail services, but I guess the bus lobby was too strong in the area. Besides, the rail network is really poor, just two single-tracked non-electrified lines covering a small part of the metropolitan area of Granada.

In fact, Granada is one of the few Spanish "important" cities where rail so far hasn't played any role in its urban transportation system. Fortunately, that will drastically change once the tram (or metro-tram/premetro, as you wish to call it) opens later this year or early next year.
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