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Old November 22nd, 2016, 11:38 PM   #3681
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Seriously? 3+2 seating? I knew Talgo was working on that, but I figured they did so to sell trains in some 3rd world countries. Do they really want to sell this configuration in Spain? Do they want to drive people from high speed train travel back to the airlines?
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 12:11 AM   #3682
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I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...

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Old November 23rd, 2016, 09:21 AM   #3683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbcn View Post
Seriously? 3+2 seating? I knew Talgo was working on that, but I figured they did so to sell trains in some 3rd world countries. Do they really want to sell this configuration in Spain? Do they want to drive people from high speed train travel back to the airlines?
I've been in the Avril prototype when it was at Innotrans a few years ago, it didn't feel cramped at all despite the 2+3 seating arrangement. This is because the body is wider than you'd find on most trains (it's slightly lower).
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 12:31 PM   #3684
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The box measures 3,200 mm wide so the seats have standard sizes. The train is valid for UIC gauge because the cars are very short 13.14 meters and move inward of the curves. The system is completely new and different.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 01:35 PM   #3685
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I've been in the Avril prototype when it was at Innotrans a few years ago, it didn't feel cramped at all despite the 2+3 seating arrangement.
Did you actually sit with 3 people next to each other? Otherwise you may not have noticed either the narrower seats or the narrower arm rests.

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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
The box measures 3,200 mm wide so the seats have standard sizes.
A Velaro ES has a width of 2,950 mm. 25cm extra width is not enough for an extra seat, so something else must have been made narrower too.

I've ridden the Shinkansen N700, which also has 5 seats abreast in standard class. That didn't feel cramped at all, but at 3,4m wide it is a full 45cm wider compared to the Velaro ES.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 02:13 PM   #3686
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It's not only about the seat width. If there is even the slightest possibility that I will end up in a middle seat between two strangers, I will fly. At least then I know that, if I end up in the middle, it will be a short trip. (To put this in perspective, I often use the train instead of a plane for trips up to 5 or 6 hours. So I am a big fan of train travel in general...)

And what about 1st class on these trains? Are they also dropping the 2+1 seating for 2+2? No more single seats?
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 04:39 PM   #3687
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Quote:
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I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...

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The whole idea of having foreign companies competing against domestic ones in a context of political driven decision making is and has always been a complete joke. The Spanish state has poured billions into Talgo over the years, the odds of seeing any other company than Talgo winning was 0,00000000000000001%, even CAF stand no chance when they are up against Talgo.

However, in the future when we will see competition on the Spanish rail network, chances are pretty good other companies will buy based on pure economical reason and not based on how jobs can be saved. Only then we will see the real merit of Talgo, if they can compete in a market driven economy.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 05:17 PM   #3688
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The whole idea of having foreign companies competing against domestic ones in a context of political driven decision making is and has always been a complete joke. The Spanish state has poured billions into Talgo over the years, the odds of seeing any other company than Talgo winning was 0,00000000000000001%, even CAF stand no chance when they are up against Talgo.

However, in the future when we will see competition on the Spanish rail network, chances are pretty good other companies will buy based on pure economical reason and not based on how jobs can be saved. Only then we will see the real merit of Talgo, if they can compete in a market driven economy.
Talgo exports a lot so they must be somehow competitive.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 05:31 PM   #3689
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I noticed the latest coaches used in the Talgo high speed trains (I think it's AVE Class 102), put into service a couple of years ago, have less space for the legs compared to the previous generation. Now Talgo goes one step further by decreasing space in the other axis too. The train seems to gradually loses its advantages in comfortability.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 09:00 PM   #3690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...
I don't know how the current situation is in other European countries, but at least in Spain we have Spanish (Talgo and CAF), French (Alstom) and German (Siemens) high speed trains.

I understand what you say and in most cases I'm sure you're right, but so far Spain hasn't only bought trains from national producers.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 10:56 PM   #3691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clickgr View Post
I noticed the latest coaches used in the Talgo high speed trains (I think it's AVE Class 102), put into service a couple of years ago, have less space for the legs compared to the previous generation. Now Talgo goes one step further by decreasing space in the other axis too. The train seems to gradually loses its advantages in comfortability.
Talgo offers the options and builds what the customer asks for...
When the customer (in this case Renfe) wants the seats closer together and 5 abreast they make it happen. Whether the passengers like those choices is another story. It seems like that despite people still growing taller every year, in every new train model they try to cram more seats in less space. We're starting to approach airplane charter carrier territory here and I absolutely don't like that.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 11:01 PM   #3692
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And that is awful!
They are going towards "low cost" trains, with no legroom for people taller than 1,80 m. Like many airlines nowadays...
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 11:17 PM   #3693
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As far as I know, when Spain went for german or french HST rolling stock, spanish manufacturers did not have an HST offer yet. So I think that my initial position still stands.

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Old November 23rd, 2016, 11:24 PM   #3694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Talgo offers the options and builds what the customer asks for...
When the customer (in this case Renfe) wants the seats closer together and 5 abreast they make it happen. Whether the passengers like those choices is another story. It seems like that despite people still growing taller every year, in every new train model they try to cram more seats in less space. We're starting to approach airplane charter carrier territory here and I absolutely don't like that.
I always find very strange that each time I get off Thalys in Brussels, the train I take for the 30 minutes ride to my hometown is vastly more comfortable than the one I just had for the 90 minutes trip from Paris.

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Old November 23rd, 2016, 11:44 PM   #3695
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The point of using a HS train is that is more comfortable than a plane for more or less the same price and it takes you more or less the same time from city center to city center than using a plane. So, I can't really see the point of having airplane seats on a HS train. You will just be as uncomfortable as in a plane, paying the same as in a plane but spending more time being unconfortable... I think it's gonna be a big big mistake for Renfe using the 3+2 configuration...

Yes, Shinkansen in Japan might have it on 2nd class and yes they even have couches that allow people to travel standing on 2nd too (Won't be suprised if Renfe is thinking about that too). But japanese high speed trains are far more competitive than planes over there (tracks in Japan are 100% high speed, trains acelerate to 300km/h right from the moment they leave the station, and domestic planes are much more expensive in Japan than in Spain). Moreover the japanese frequencies sound as something from a sci-fi movie in Europe: one Tokyo-Osaka every 10-15 mins! The Shinkansen it's more like a long distance metro... Spanish system although good is waaay far from that.
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Last edited by MrAkumana; November 23rd, 2016 at 11:46 PM. Reason: typos
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Old November 24th, 2016, 02:56 AM   #3696
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I don't know how the current situation is in other European countries, but at least in Spain we have Spanish (Talgo and CAF), French (Alstom) and German (Siemens) high speed trains.

I understand what you say and in most cases I'm sure you're right, but so far Spain hasn't only bought trains from national producers.
The Alstom trains were bought because they were the only real HSR trains on the market in the late 1980s. The only other option was the Japanese Kawasaki train. Talgo did not have a HSR train back then. Neither did the Germans nor the Italians. Anyway, there are lots of politics involved in state owned companies buying foreign products when there are domestic alternatives available.

When Alstom sold their trains to Renfe they also bought two old factories (MACOSA and MTM) as part of the deal, this saved jobs as the spanish TGV trains were assembled in the Barcelona factory and Alstom engines were built in Valencia.

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Old November 24th, 2016, 04:57 AM   #3697
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Actually, the Shinkansen has services at roughly SIX minute intervals during the peak.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 10:43 AM   #3698
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How is the seat configuration for 1st class?
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Old November 24th, 2016, 11:31 AM   #3699
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According to Talgo:
Quote:
These cars, with a width of 3,200 millimeters, and thanks to the development of sophisticated active and passive guiding systems of boxes in curves allow the installation of five seats per row, guaranteeing compliance with the UIC gauge and therefore the interoperability of the train, Without the comfort of passengers and accessibility Is not affected.
The distance between the armrests, the space available for the knees, the width of the aisle and the rest of the comfort parameters do not differ from the characteristics of the Talgo trains.
The minimum aisle width is 500 millimeters.
The air was out below the window and occupied space; ventilation is now made to go through the roof.






Well, it looks like some of the people from here got into the car that was in InnoTrans, so you can say better than the others.
According to the planes of the prototype, the seats in First Class have configuration 2 + 2.

Avril photo gallery

Other innovations of the Avril are: the positioning of boxes in curve (the mechanical part from Liebherr), the guidance of wheels (to minimize costs of maintenance of the train and of the rail, greater comfort in the trip for the passenger, and reduce the noise generated by the friction in curves) that meant the "European Innovation 2013" award for José Luis López, the REGATO (Regulated Energy Efficient Automatic Train Operation) and an innovative floating floor for the passenger area that, with very light materials, minimizes noise and vibration in the passenger compartment.
The Avril –for Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero (Light High-Speed Independent Wheel)– of wide box can not have natural pendulum (Pendular by Talgo), the normal box: yes.
[URL = "http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/pendulacion.php"]Pendular by Talgo[/ URL]: not tilting, cars are not inclined supported by the boogies but hanging: it's Like a pendulum.
The "[URL =" http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/rueda.php "]stands[/ URL]" Talgo technology is not boogies, they are independent wheels; it´s called “rodal”.
Railtec Systems is responsible for the traction chain and ABB of the traction converter. The exterior has been designed by Pininfarina, the interior by Haslacher, Constellium is in charge of the extruded aluminum of the boxes and the interior panels, the exterior doors are of Bode, the air conditioning of Faiveley (depending on the real occupation of the train), the armchairs of Fainsa and the pieces of composite material of Aeropoxy.
The G3 prototype is certified at 330 km/h, is composed of two conventional locomotives in Bo Bo configuration with 12 trailers, has 4 bogies with traction and 13 stands (38% of motorized axles), a power of 8,800 kW, a consumption of 13 kWh/km, bitensión (1.5 and 25 kV), 201.9 meters and 316 tons. Everything you read and are not here (380 km/h, shared bogies, seats in locomotives, concealment of inactive pantographs ...) refers to the future Avril G4.
It also continues with the "signs of identity" Talgo: lightweight, articulated, low trailers (3.33 m) and low floor: ground 76 cm (AV platform height in Spain, except Seville).







Pendulum system:


Avril suspension:


A PDF about Avril in English



Coste total del contrato / Total cost of the contract
Coste de los trenes / Cost of trains
Coste por tren / Cost per trains
Coste por tren con mantenimiento / Cost per train with maintenance
Mantenimiento (30 años) / Maintenance (30 years)
Mantenimiento por tren y año / Maintenance by train and year
Plazas / Seats
Puntos técnicos (máximo: 35) / Technical points (maximum: 35)
Garantía (años) / Warranty (years)
Disponibilidad / Availability (%)
€ por plaza (coste + mantenimiento) / € per seat (train cost + 30 years maintenance)
Coeficiente variable / Variable coefficient (Energy consumption, availability, budget of cleaning operations and major repairs, years of warranty, delivery times, and a long etcetera)
Coste por plaza con variables / Cost per seat with variable coefficient
Coeficiente teórico / Theoretical coefficient with published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)
Coste publicado / Published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)

In addition, the supply deadlines proposed by Talgo reach 36 months, compared to 56 of Alstom. Talgo was also very aggressive in the maintenance price revision (1%), half a percentage point lower than the rest of its rivals (1.5%).

Someone may think that there are two Spanish companies because the buyer is Renfe, but they would be the same if it were summoned for 300 km/h in any other European country: 2 out of 5. If the bidding in, for example, the United States, could be presented Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, CRRC (China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation), Hyundai Rotem (Korea), JR Tokai (Kawasaki, Hitachi, Nippon Sharyo and Kinki Sharyo), Siemens and Talgo. 2 of the only 8. Hitachi will have its European train at 300 km/h (the AT400) ready for the British LAV HS2 in 2026.

Anyway, I do not work in Talgo and I have other things to do, so I will not participate much more in this discussion. If anyone has any questions I will respond with pleasure.
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Last edited by Gusiluz; November 24th, 2016 at 11:43 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 07:02 PM   #3700
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Quote:
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I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...

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Huh? Spanish high-speed rolling stock is mostly foreign: S-100 from Alstom (24 in service); S-102 from Talgo and Bombardier (16 in service), and S-103 from Siemens (26 in service)

What I don't understand is the hassle of going 3+2; if capacity is an issue why wouldn't Renfe order two-floor trains?
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