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Old November 24th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #3701
MarcVD
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All those were purchase while spanish industry could not produce an HST design from its own. But now that they can, by pure chance, Talgo and Caf are the winners ? And by the way, I did not want to fingerpoint Spain alone... It is clear that France, Germany, Italy, Japan are all doing the same.

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Old November 25th, 2016, 11:36 AM   #3702
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I do not know why I bothered to put the Excel table that was in my last message, since it seems that - almost - nobody has read it.

Coste total del contrato / Total cost of the contract
Coste de los trenes / Cost of trains
Coste por tren / Cost per trains
Coste por tren con mantenimiento / Cost per train with maintenance
Mantenimiento (30 años) / Maintenance (30 years)
Mantenimiento por tren y año / Maintenance by train and year
Plazas / Seats
Puntos técnicos (máximo: 35) / Technical points (maximum: 35)
Garantía (años) / Warranty (years)
Disponibilidad / Availability (%)
€ por plaza (coste + mantenimiento) / € per seat (train cost + 30 years maintenance)
Coeficiente variable / Variable coefficient (Energy consumption, availability, budget of cleaning operations and major repairs, years of warranty, delivery times, and a long etcetera)
Coste por plaza con variables / Cost per seat with variable coefficient
Coeficiente teórico / Theoretical coefficient with published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)
Coste publicado / Published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)

In addition, the supply deadlines proposed by Talgo reach 36 months, compared to 56 of Alstom. Talgo was also very aggressive in the maintenance price revision (1%), half a percentage point lower than the rest of its rivals (1.5%).


Why the two finalists are Spaniards?
It would be sufficient only for the fact that the possibility of variable width in the last 15 trains was valued. Maybe you did not know that, but you have been able to see that Excel table, so:
I do not know, because one of them has the best technical note, by far, and both have the cheapest deals?
Only for that?

Why not buy double-decker trains?
I do not know, because they are more expensive per passenger, it is more difficult to seat restoration (Ferrovial refused), you have to go down one step to the lower floor and use the stairs - which occupy a lot of space - for the superior, smaller width and poor accessibility?
Only for that?

In many bids have been made public the economic offers and technical scores? Perhaps in the last of Belfort, as a more recent example?

Is this the level here? No, this is a joke.

I take it back. If someone (I think there will not be any, although I would like to be wrong) you want information about this subject I´d better go to the Thread in spanish:
Coste de adquisición de los trenes de alta velocidad
Talgo Avril
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Old November 25th, 2016, 12:13 PM   #3703
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You’ve got to like the “Seat configuration adapted to all uses” sales pitch shown by Gusiluz in post #3700, with the added “Intermediate seat occupied only if load factor is over 80%”.
We all know what that means in practice: passengers who buy their tickets late and therefore pay the highest fares will end up in the middle seats (since with train travel seats are allocated when buying the ticket, unlike with air travel).


And thank you for confirming that first class will go “sardine” as well, with 2+2 seating. Not having single seats takes away the main reason to travel first.
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Old November 25th, 2016, 01:38 PM   #3704
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Basically a TGV with 2nd and 3rd class rather than 1st and 2nd.

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Old November 25th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #3705
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Well....if one would redo the Talgo cost calculations by Gusiluz shown above assuming a 2+1 (1st) and 2+2 (2nd) seat layout instead of the infamous new 2+2 and 2+3 variant, the Talgos may become quite expensive too.... (longer trainsets or more of them).

The 2+3 Layout may seem useful in high density traffic scenarios, where headways between trains are already impossible to decrease (like on several Japanese HSR lines). So, when HSLs capacity approaches 100% packed then adding another seat per row may be understandable (even if double deckers are more passenger friendly)- because there would be no other way...

But the Spanish HSL lines are most likely those with the lowest traffic density worldwide I guess. Right there they chose to introduce that sort of 3rd class travel experience?
That's quite mediocre, especially when considering the otherwise highly ambitious HSL programme.

Another observation in Gusiluz Table:
Fixed gauge Talgo trains cost almost the same as those with variable gauge axles. Cost difference per axle is almost nothing. This seems strange to me.

But I like those Talgos (in 2+2 2nd layout of coursse) :-)

Another observation: TGV Duplex and Velaro 1 are given with factually exactly the same costs for trainsets and maintenance. Weird.
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Old November 27th, 2016, 05:27 AM   #3706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
According to Talgo:


This is much better than conventional cars. It allows more configurations, groups of 5 or 6 can travel all together, or couples with one child.

But only if individual passengers are not required to use the central seat, which I think may be possible. In fact it seems to be designed this way, For passengers to have a side tray, and plenty of arm space



So It depends on the operator to turn this into an infamous train,
Or be the most comfortable
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Old November 27th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #3707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rulengulen View Post
But only if individual passengers are not required to use the central seat, which I think may be possible. In fact it seems to be designed this way, For passengers to have a side tray, and plenty of arm space
Even then, the seats will be narrower than what we are used to. (Look at the total width of the train compared to traditional ones in Gusiluz's post. The difference is only about 30cm.) So definitely not "more comfortable".

And do you really believe that those middle seats will stay empty if there is demand...? (If that were the case, they would not really need 5 seats in a row anyway, would they?)
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Old November 27th, 2016, 05:33 PM   #3708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbbcn View Post
Even then, the seats will be narrower than what we are used to. (Look at the total width of the train compared to traditional ones in Gusiluz's post. The difference is only about 30cm.) So definitely not "more comfortable".

And do you really believe that those middle seats will stay empty if there is demand...? (If that were the case, they would not really need 5 seats in a row anyway, would they?)
I think this will be related to the price of the ticket. The initial idea of these trains is to be able to offer low cost. Then for this the trains must occupy to 100%. And the user already knows that he will sacrifice comfort.

Most trips where the capacity does not exceed 80%, these central seats will be empty without problem, since the price will be normal.

Anyway we will have to wait, because this will depend a lot on the use (or abuse) that the corresponding operator of these trains can do.
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Old November 28th, 2016, 08:42 PM   #3709
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Renfe selects Talgo for high-speed train order
Monday, November 28, 2016



SPAIN’s development minister Mr Iñigo de la Serna announced on November 28 that national train operator Renfe has awarded Talgo a contract to supply and maintain up to 30 high-speed trains

The initial contract is worth €786m, including €337m for 15 330km/h Avril trains and €449m for 30 years’ maintenance with options for 15 additional trains and a further 10 years’ maintenance. If both options are exercised, the total value for the contract will reach €1.491bn

...
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Old November 29th, 2016, 01:03 AM   #3710
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I find this disappointing as I really like the classic talgo trains. I take the Madrid-Almeria talgo a several times a year and it is a relaxed, comfortable, beautiful journey - factors which make up for the time taken. Being squashed in between two people in cramped seats with no hip or leg room is not my idea of fun. If I want sardine treatment, the airlines will gladly dish it up for less, and not require me to endure it for long. What makes it harder to understand is that the AVE system is hardly stretched to capacity. There is absolutely no need for 3+2 seating. The few times I've gone on AVE it's been less than 2/3 full (Madrid-Malaga and Sevilla-Cordoba). There's plenty of slack in the system to give passengers a decent experience. If demand does increase dramatically then frequency boosts could yield more capacity whilst improving, rather than eroding, passenger experience.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 03:23 AM   #3711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neb81 View Post
I find this disappointing as I really like the classic talgo trains. I take the Madrid-Almeria talgo a several times a year and it is a relaxed, comfortable, beautiful journey - factors which make up for the time taken. Being squashed in between two people in cramped seats with no hip or leg room is not my idea of fun. If I want sardine treatment, the airlines will gladly dish it up for less, and not require me to endure it for long. What makes it harder to understand is that the AVE system is hardly stretched to capacity. There is absolutely no need for 3+2 seating. The few times I've gone on AVE it's been less than 2/3 full (Madrid-Malaga and Sevilla-Cordoba). There's plenty of slack in the system to give passengers a decent experience. If demand does increase dramatically then frequency boosts could yield more capacity whilst improving, rather than eroding, passenger experience.
3+2 is configuration low cost According to Talgo. Therefore, if the price in preferential class is close to the tourist class of a normal train, this is much better, because you have the option to travel in preferential class with lots of space, while other people (Students or families that will not be a problem in traveling together at tables of 4 or 6), can save money.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:04 AM   #3712
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Old November 29th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #3713
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I think all the fuss about the 3+2 seat layout is not justifiable. I had the opportunity to experience the interior of the Avril at Innotrans exhibition and I found it as comfortable as most contemporary high speed trainsets. If i remember correctly only the aisle width was a little narrower than usual, around 50cm.

Makes little sense to compare exterior dimensions, when the focus is on interior layout. Moreover, the new ICE 4 has an interior width of 2642mm (exterior width 2852mm ) and has almost the same seats as the wider ICE 3 and the much wider refurbished ICE 1.

A study done by Swedes shows that the average traveller does not perceive negatively the 3+2 seating layout, at least until occupancy exceeds 80-85% and even then, the effect on their willingness to travel in 3+2 layout carriage is only 1-2% lower than a 2+2 layout carriage.

Regarding the offer made by Alstom. Has the AGV offered by Alstom a total length of 200m? Or has alstom offered a longer variant? I find it quite remarkable, if they managed to squeeze 608 seats in a 200m AGV.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 05:45 PM   #3714
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This is not true...
Single passengers never like to seat between 2 strangers. It happens in many airlines!

I work at BCN Airport.
Many people complain daily about that...
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:10 PM   #3715
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Either i am lying or the study is wrong, is it what you are implying?

In case you or someone else cares, page 9 pdf

Feel free to post studies that show the opposite, they are most welcome.

Single passenger who wants to travel with more room and privacy can choose first class or in case first class is expensive, the 2 seats abreast in second.
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Old November 29th, 2016, 11:57 PM   #3716
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If paying for first class, I expect to be able to travel in a seat with no neighbour at all. Which will not be possible any more with this train.

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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:04 AM   #3717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
If paying for first class, I expect to be able to travel in a seat with no neighbour at all. Which will not be possible any more with this train.
In this train will be able to travel according to what the users need and can pay. From low cost central seat to private room.

Google translation of an article:

But undoubtedly one of the characteristics of the trains that will offer more opportunities to innovate in the commercial strategy of Renfe will be the incorporation of seats placed on interior lanes, which will provide greater versatility in the configuration. In this way, explains the Ministry of Public Works, "the future train may have the possibility of segmenting by means of panels, within the same car". This would allow, for example, to withdraw seats and leave the space available to enable nurseries, exhibition halls, cinemas or meeting halls, hitherto not available on trains, as detailed in the ministerial department.










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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:25 AM   #3718
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I'm a little skeptical about this "super-first" seats meant for business travelers. I've seen such offers kinda fail with Railjet and with ItaloTreno, especially this rooms meant for "on-the-rails" business meetings. I think it is just not common to have a large group who will travel same time and willing to pay to have a small meeting room for themselves.
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Old November 30th, 2016, 01:57 AM   #3719
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Good question. How well-utilised or underutilised are such salons/rooms?
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Old November 30th, 2016, 02:09 AM   #3720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm a little skeptical about this "super-first" seats meant for business travelers. I've seen such offers kinda fail with Railjet and with ItaloTreno, especially this rooms meant for "on-the-rails" business meetings. I think it is just not common to have a large group who will travel same time and willing to pay to have a small meeting room for themselves.
The reason is that it can be too costly.

According to information talgo has provided the possibility of installation of panels removing seats, and perhaps in this way make it more affordable. Although I am also skeptical
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