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Old December 4th, 2016, 09:55 PM   #3721
rolabol
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Any news on Vandellos - Camp de Tarragona?

I spend this winter in Cunit - the beach on one side and the railway on the other side of the house. Is there any news on when the new line to Vandellos will open? I guess it would remove some interesting trains from my view.
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Old December 4th, 2016, 10:41 PM   #3722
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There are no official opening dates yet.

But it won't open before spring 2017 for sure. There's still much to do.

Pictures taken today in the site of the future station close to Reus airport (cross-posting from the Spanish forum, all credits to julioelchispa):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=8602

Quote:
Originally Posted by julioelchispa View Post
Estación central de Reus-Tarragona.

La traza provisional ya esta prohibida para su uso ferroviario.








Los cambiadores hace tiempo que esperan "algo" para funcionar.


Hacia Camp de tarragona continúa la vía en ancho ibérico. Hay material para colocar las primeras agujas.



imagen jpg
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Old December 5th, 2016, 08:37 AM   #3723
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SPAIN | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by rulengulen View Post
In this train will be able to travel according to what the users need and can pay. From low cost central seat to private room.

Google translation of an article:

But undoubtedly one of the characteristics of the trains that will offer more opportunities to innovate in the commercial strategy of Renfe will be the incorporation of seats placed on interior lanes, which will provide greater versatility in the configuration. In this way, explains the Ministry of Public Works, "the future train may have the possibility of segmenting by means of panels, within the same car". This would allow, for example, to withdraw seats and leave the space available to enable nurseries, exhibition halls, cinemas or meeting halls, hitherto not available on trains, as detailed in the ministerial department.

Really Awesome concept by Renfe, thanks for sharing pictures.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 01:13 PM   #3724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raos View Post
Really Awesome concept by Renfe, thanks for sharing pictures.
That is all sales talk. If they felt that they had room for all these extra spaces they would not have added an extra seat on each row to start with.

Remember all the hoora stories about the A380? How many (European) airlines have actually done something else than turn it into a slightly larger sardine tin?

Last edited by kbbcn; December 5th, 2016 at 09:46 PM. Reason: spelling + layout (could not modify earlier on tablet)
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Old December 5th, 2016, 05:16 PM   #3725
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That is all sales talk. If they felt that they had room for all these extra spaces they would not have added an extra seat on each row to start with.
I think that full capacity will be possible in some days / hours and seasons, and through special offers.

On travel that is predictable less than 80% occupancy, the central seat is a tray. And in addition, the operator has the possibility to enable some rooms or cabins

This is called versatility.
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Old December 27th, 2016, 04:19 PM   #3726
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Hey,

will there be any upgraded or new High Speed Rail go into service in Spain in 2017?

What's with the new tunnel under Madrid: Is there an opening date known?
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Old December 28th, 2016, 02:38 AM   #3727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Hey,

will there be any upgraded or new High Speed Rail go into service in Spain in 2017?

What's with the new tunnel under Madrid: Is there an opening date known?
Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos (or part of it) is likely... if they keep up.

The Madrid connection is also likely, if they don't stop.

No dates yet. And not sure any of them opens in 2017.

As for Monforte del Cid-Murcia, Antequera-Granada, Venta de Baños-Burgos and Zamora-Pedralba... unlikely, unless some unexpected progress happened.

That said, if they opened any new stretch, they'd probably begin to feel the lack of HS rolling stock.
Finding tickets for the desired train on some routes like Madrid-Galicia is becoming harder and harder.

=====================================================================

Rumour:

The Basque regional government is putting pressure on the Ministry for the completion of the Basque Y.
The current Spanish Infrastructure Minister, Iñigo De La Serna, was born in Bilbao. Let's keep an eye on that.
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Last edited by 437.001; December 28th, 2016 at 02:46 AM.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 04:52 AM   #3728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos (or part of it) is likely... if they keep up.

The Madrid connection is also likely, if they don't stop.

No dates yet. And not sure any of them opens in 2017.

As for Monforte del Cid-Murcia, Antequera-Granada, Venta de Baños-Burgos and Zamora-Pedralba... unlikely, unless some unexpected progress happened.

That said, if they opened any new stretch, they'd probably begin to feel the lack of HS rolling stock.
Finding tickets for the desired train on some routes like Madrid-Galicia is becoming harder and harder.

=====================================================================

Rumour:

The Basque regional government is putting pressure on the Ministry for the completion of the Basque Y.
The current Spanish Infrastructure Minister, Iñigo De La Serna, was born in Bilbao. Let's keep an eye on that.
So that issue of dozens of trains parked at depots at the height of financial crisis is no more? I remember several newspapers and sites breaking the story of wasteful transportation expenses in the run up of the crisis: Ciudad Real airport, Madrid radiales, train depots full of unused high speed trains and services like Toledo Cuenca attracting less than 50 passengers per day.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 12:55 PM   #3729
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Well, others we have a pretty bad opinion about the media and politicians.
In this long text is what the media published and the data on which they based their claims, and with the translation of some of the write here or Google translate (I have neither time, nor desire and for my bad english) can be verified which are not at all like at all. But legends are always attractive, only now they are called post-truth.

Judgment on AVE Toledo-Albacete A.K.A. The Legend of the Phantom AVE

Juicio al Ave Toledo-Albacete A.K.A. La leyenda del Ave fantasma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Nada más lejos de mi intención que comenzar la típica discusión: Ave Si / Ave No, que casi nunca admite matices; en absoluto. Ni defender que unos políticos sean menos horrorosos que los de enfrente; ¡ faltaría más !. Ni tampoco justificar a Renfe; al contrario.
Lo que quiero es señalar la, desde mi punto de vista, pésima gestión política, y la nefasta comunicación de hechos desde los poderes (el 1º y el 4º) hacia los ciudadanos, cuando se supone que ahora deberíamos estar mejor informados que nunca. Y es que una cosa es tener mucha información y otra muy distinta estar bien informados.

Acusaciones:
Unánimes, con un mensaje claro y sencillo, fácil de entender:
El País: “Renfe elimina el AVE Toledo-Albacete porque solo lleva nueve pasajeros"
El Mundo: “El AVE directo Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete tenía únicamente 9 viajeros al día
Público: “Anulado el AVE Toledo-Albacete por tener 9 viajeros
elconfidencial: “La línea suprimida costó al Estado 18.000 euros diarios”. Resalto: “El propio Urkijo aseguró que se eliminaba la línea de alta velocidad porque...”
blog.conectaingenieros.es: “La línea de AVE Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete, ya suprimida, clamaba al cielo
Cospedal: “deben dar explicaciones sobre la supresión de la línea de AVE regional que conectaba Toledo-Albacete y Cuenca. Se han invertido cerca de 4.000 M € en esa infraestructura, si no más, y desde luego desde Fomento deben dar una explicación”.
Uno de los hashtags más utilizado entonces pedía: “¿qué se puede hacer con los 3.500 M € que costó la línea de AVE que une Toledo, Cuenca y Albacete?”.
Incluso webs ferroviarias:
Vivireltren: “Billetes de AVE a 1.150 € con dinero público”. Resalto: “Tras una inversión superior a los 3.700 M € para llevar el AVE a Albacete, el enlace directo con Toledo movió únicamente a 2.796 pasajeros en sus 6 meses primeros meses (sic) de actividad”. Las cuentas que hacen son: 18.000 entre 9+7.
(Lo "mejor" son los comentarios de los lectores).

Hechos:
El 19/12/2010 Renfe instauró 3 servicios diarios por sentido entre Toledo y Albacete, vía Madrid, mediante trenes AVE S-112.
El 28/06/2011 el director general de Viajeros, Enrique Urkijo, anuncia cambios a partir del 1 de julio: “Renfe optimizará la oferta de trenes entre Toledo y Albacete para ajustarla a la demanda existente en el corredor. Así, se sustituirán los servicios AVE por dos nuevas conexiones Avant, con tarifas más económicas para los viajeros”.
Así, los 3 AVEs Toledo-Albacete (S-112) se sustituyeron por 2 Avant Toledo-Madrid (S-104) y 2 AVEs Madrid-Albacete (S-112).

Antecedentes:
El gobierno de Castilla-La Mancha se propuso “articular” (¡ qué cosas !) la Comunidad mediante un servicio de AV entre capitales aprovechando la apertura de la LAV Madrid-Albacete... (y la proximidad de las elecciones, añado). Cuando se lanzó el globo-sonda de realizarlo mediante trenes Avant la oposición empezó a hablar de “AVEs de segunda”, así que el gobierno se arrugó y puso AVEs “de primera”.

Testimonios:
Los artículos se basaban en la rueda de prensa de Renfe del 28/06/2011, donde se dijo: “Ha dado servicio a 74.595 viajeros, con una tasa de aprovechamiento del 20 % en todo el corredor. Además, de esta cifra, solo 2.796 se han beneficiado de la continuidad del servicio. La gran mayoría de la movilidad (el 97%) se concentra entre Madrid y Toledo y entre Madrid y Albacete. En los seis primeros meses de funcionamiento, el AVE de Toledo ha dado servicio a una media de 9 viajeros diarios hasta Albacete y de 7 hasta Cuenca”.
En los medios se remarca: “9 viajeros diarios con una oferta de 2.190 plazas”. Los 9 viajeros eran por sentido (como todos los datos sobre viajeros y servicios) y, en cambio, contaban las plazas sumando ida y vuelta (363+2 cada tren). Y lo peor: solo contaban a los que hacían todo el trayecto, aunque no hace falta ser “de ciencias” para saber que 74.595 viajeros en 6 meses no son 9 diarios.
Por precisar, según la respuesta parlamentaria del 07/08/2012 sobre viajeros y cobertura de servicios, el corredor Toledo-Albacete tuvo 83.127 viajeros por sentido en los 6 meses que estuvo en funcionamiento durante 2011, y 6.488 en 16 días de 2010, lo que da una media de 464 viajeros diarios sobre una oferta de 1.089.
Los 18.000 € diarios de gasto (en la Intranet ese dato no aparece, quizás fue off the record) entre 464 viajeros por sentido son 19,40 € por billete; quizás los gastos también eran por sentido.
Un aprovechamiento del 20 % (por comparar: es una ocupación del 43 % según los datos que suelen dar en Fomento) es pésimo, pero no fue eso lo que nos contaron. Lo que nos contaron fue que cada tren iba con 3 viajeros (9 entre 3 servicios) y que se “desmanteló la infraestructura” que había costado “3.500/3.700/4.000 M €”.
En un Foro como éste no hace falta señalar que los trenes siguen circulando entre Toledo y La Sagra, entre La Sagra y Atocha, y entre Atocha y Albacete; pero mucha gente, incluso del sector, se lo creyó. Los 4.000 M € son el coste de la LAV Torrejón de Velasco-Valencia junto al ramal a Albacete. Valencia nada tiene que ver, simplemente se inauguró a la vez, pero venía bien para el mensaje que se quería lanzar. Entonces, el ramal a Albacete también servía a los Alvia para Alicante e incluso para Valencia.
La verdad es que lo que se llamó supresión y desmantelamiento fue pasar de 3 servicios a 2.

Consecuencias:
Juzgado y condenado por los medios, el AVE pasó de “símbolo de la modernidad” a "ejemplo de despilfarro". No el de Toledo a Albacete, sino todos, en general. Si alguien dice algo bueno sobre el AVE, solo hay que nombrar ese servicio y se termina la discusión.
A falta del informe pericial, los daños, tanto económicos como de imagen, se pueden calificar de inconmensurables.

Conclusiones personales:
Facilitar la movilidad está muy bien, siempre y cuando se haga en base a estudios y con criterios racionales (y no políticos). Si, además, se cede a la demagogia y se pone material más “vendible” electoralmente, pero mucho menos apto (más caro: 15 € contra 10,60 entre Toledo y Madrid, y además: no podía utilizarse con los bonos Avant, así que los viajeros habituales huían de estos trenes), ya tenemos todos los ingredientes para el fracaso. Pero reconocieron el error y rectificaron, y lo único que consiguieron fue la mofa y la burla, así que no nos puede extrañar que sea dogma político el mantenella e no enmendalla.
Y finalmente, como opinión personal, creo que lo que deberían haber puesto desde el principio era la continuación hasta Albacete de los dos Avant Toledo-Madrid que tuviesen mejor horario entre Madrid y Albacete. En caso de conflicto, mejor ponerlos para los 185 viajeros diarios Madrid-Albacete (en los restantes 6 meses de 2011 hubo 33.800 viajeros en el corredor Ave) que para los 16 viajeros pasantes.

Nota: con lo fácil que es explicar (y entender) lo de los “9 viajeros diarios”, y lo complicado que ha sido hacerlo (e imagino que comprenderlo) con mi versión de los hechos. Está claro que no tengo futuro en el periodismo
Lo que sí que ha sido fácil ha sido obtener los datos para este post: solo me hizo falta una calculadora y leer la rueda de prensa. No he precisado de ningún conocimiento adicional; alguien que no haya visto un tren en su vida podría haber llegado a las mismas conclusiones. Y eso es lo verdaderamente preocupante.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 04:32 PM   #3730
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
So that issue of dozens of trains parked at depots at the height of financial crisis is no more? I remember several newspapers and sites breaking the story of wasteful transportation expenses in the run up of the crisis: Ciudad Real airport, Madrid radiales, train depots full of unused high speed trains and services like Toledo Cuenca attracting less than 50 passengers per day.
Talking only about railways... Toledo-Cuenca-(Albacete) was a train that was really expensive compared with a bus service and not much time saved providing they had to call in Madrid.

It wasn't a line only for those trains but just a service. There were three daily trains shuttling them. AFAIK, they were gone and two more Madrid-Toledo trains were added. I do not know if extra trains to Albacete. This is... people can do journey but not direct. Need to change in Madrid.

In addition, Toledo-Madrid (Toledo-La Sagra to be exact... https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Toled...4!2d39.9293206) was opened in 2005 and has only services Madrid-Toledo (in peak days has had Barcelona-Madrid-Toledo)
Madrid-Cuenca is common to any railway direction Mediterranean city and to Albacete, trains to Alicante and, in the future, to Murcia and Almeria.

Newspapers were confused and seemed that an infrastructure was broken down when only some services were replaced, erasing a direct one.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 04:37 PM   #3731
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What about the stories on trainsets rusting away in depots? At the time, if I remember correctly, there was even this article saying Spain should sell high speed trains to other countries to recoup some money (which is silly, in the grand scheme of public budget a couple dozen trains are not really that valuable).
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Old December 28th, 2016, 04:40 PM   #3732
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What about the stories on trainsets rusting away in depots? At the time, if I remember correctly, there was even this articles saying Spain should sell high speed trains to other countries to recoup some money (which is silly, in the grand scheme of public budget a couple dozen trains are not really that valuable).
December 6th (Tuesday) and 8th (Thursday) were holidays in Spain. Saturday 3rd in Navarre too... this is, a great deal of people chose that week to ask some extra free days and travel corner to corner.

Some forumers with access to special data said Renfe used almost all possible trains they had to put extra seats in their trains (and most of them were full).
Obviously it was a special week.
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Old December 29th, 2016, 04:54 AM   #3733
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So that issue of dozens of trains parked at depots at the height of financial crisis is no more?
DEFINITELY. Now it's the other way around, they have a shortage of trains.

They used to have overstock for some time, but with the opening of the Albacete-Alicante HSL, Olmedo-Zamora HSL, Valladolid-Palencia-Leon HSL, the electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line and its connection to the Madrid-Valladolid HSL, Santiago-Vigo HSL, and Barcelona-Figueres-Perpignan HSL (and the ones to come in the near future), now they do really need more trains.

No wonder they've ordered new AVE trains, and are also planning to create a few more Alvia trains from the old Talgo trainsets, they really really need them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I remember several newspapers and sites breaking the story of wasteful transportation expenses in the run up of the crisis: Ciudad Real airport, Madrid radiales, train depots full of unused high speed trains and services like Toledo Cuenca attracting less than 50 passengers per day.
Ciudad Real airport: True, they built too many airports where there was no need for them.
However, the one that was lambasted the most by the press and politicians and then people in the street was not the Ciudad Real one, but the Castellon one.
It turns out that the Castellon airport finally opened and it's doing not that bad. The Ciudad Real airport was a hopeless case, though.

Madrid radial tolled motorways: they'd be doing ok if they had been free motorways instead of tolled motorways. The government has had to bail them out. However, lately, they're seeing an increase in transit, as Madrid keeps on growing and the country is (very) slowly leaving the crisis behind, bit by bit.

Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete HSL: never existed in the first place. Like Gusiluz explained, it was never a HSL, but some AVE services using the existing HSL's Madrid-Toledo and Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete (now Madrid-Alicante, by that time the HSL didn't reach Alicante yet), which didn't work out well, so Renfe discontinued those services, replacing them by more efficient ones, but which required to change trains at Madrid-Atocha station.
So no Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete HSL was ever closed, as no such HSL was ever built to begin with.
However, the press (and even politicians, and then general people) kept on talking and talking as if it was real, but the Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete HSL never existed, all services ran via Madrid, calling at Madrid. Many still believe in its existence, others choose to believe in UFO's.
The fun side of the story is that afterwards, during the year dedicated to the Greek painter El Greco, which featured special events in Toledo (exhibitions and so on), some AVE trains Alicante-Madrid (calling at Albacete and Cuenca, of course) were extended to Toledo... and guess what? They were reasonably successful and no one complained. After the end of that year the services went back to normal, though, so now you have to change at Madrid again.
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Old December 29th, 2016, 02:24 PM   #3734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

=====================================================================

Rumour:

The Basque regional government is putting pressure on the Ministry for the completion of the Basque Y.
The current Spanish Infrastructure Minister, Iñigo De La Serna, was born in Bilbao. Let's keep an eye on that.
I don't think we'll be seeing them before 2020. De La Serna seems more amicable to the idea of building new underground stations for Bilbao and Vitoria-Gasteiz, which his predecessor said was "not viable". It also seems like more money will be flowing for the Bergara knot.
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Old December 29th, 2016, 08:37 PM   #3735
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What's going on in that corner at the moment? Active construction or all stalled waiting for more funding?
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Old December 29th, 2016, 10:22 PM   #3736
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The main problem right now is the different degree of execution of neighboring sections; while civil works in most of the line are completed or almost completed, in some key parts they haven't even started (Bergara junction and the accesses to the 3 Basque capitals). That means that the line won't open at least until 2020, even though in some sections civil works were completed 4 or 5 years ago.

And track laying won't start until all civil works are ready, of course. The city accesses could be solved with provisional solutions (e.g. using the classic line with a 3rd rail for mixed gauge), but the situation of the Bergara knot prevents any partial opening of the line.

The last news we have is that the different contracts for building this key section have been terminated even before the works were started and that now they will be retendered as a sole project so the same TBM can be used to dig the whole section.

So my question is, why is construction of HSL in Spain always divided in so small sections that a delay in one of them by a problem of a contractor (like bankruptcy) can prevent a whole line from opening?
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Old December 30th, 2016, 01:10 AM   #3737
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Quote:
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So my question is, why is construction of HSL in Spain always divided in so small sections that a delay in one of them by a problem of a contractor (like bankruptcy) can prevent a whole line from opening?

Spain has an interesting constellation on who decides (and partly pays) how High Speed Lines are connected to the cities they serve.
Here, I'll try to analyze the situation, providing links to maps and current state of works.
I might not be perfectly and correct on all details (as it is hard to follow regional politics throughout Spain from a foreigners distance). Anyway, here we go:

1.) The long distance high speed railway network vertices are planned and executed by central government authorities. This does not include city-crossings or similar, the planning end in the outskirts!
2.) The HSL integrations into the cities themselves depend solely on the will of the regional or city governments.

The idea behind this is reasonable: One central authority to design the overall network plus local authorities designing local integration of the HSL lines into "their" cities. Makes sense.

However, the past years have shown that local authorities do not seem able or willing to handle this task in a responsible way. To put it shortly, the situation in Spain currently is a a mess. Local or regional governments force costly underground solutions, or simply decide to get rid of central stations by rebuilding them outside of the city. It seems they can block the network progression until they get fundings for what they want (afaik this is currently the case in Murcia, Bilbao, Vitoria).

When comparing the Spanish "culture" of removing stations from major cities center (or having them removed from the surface) with other countries in Europe, one may observe that this is a pretty unique and extremely expensive behavior for sure (EU-funds?).
Plus, frequently, the outcomes are less good for the public transport idea, but this is another discourse...

Nevertheless, there are a few positive HSL integrations in Spain when considering and balancing city size , cost, infrastructure and urbanization effects:
Zaragoza and Lleida and also Barcelona.
But then, there are several horrible examples, which either led to post-2008 face-palms that had to be redesigned (like the now closed Leon through station) causing long delays or have not actuated at all. Examples where almost finished HSL lines end in the nowhere:
* Bilbao (very costly proposals, put everything underground including long access tunnels, nothing done). Examples:
* Vitoria (remove station from city center and have it underground too, nothing done)

Well, then there are cities similar problems Valladolid (not so private company wanting it underground just went bankrupt,), Granada, Murcia, Valencia (with a provisional station...) and some more I guess, All wanting 100% fantasy subterrain solutions in order to provide new open spaces for speculation for a few (what else). Plus special cases like Merida, Loja, Caceres, Ourense, Palencia ...

In case of the Basque-Y, the left leg (Vitoria-San Sebastian) is led by the central state, while the right leg to San Sebastian is led by regional authorities.

Vitoria could be connected rather quickly to the HighSpeed Railway Line unless they want it "all underground and far away from the city center" - local authorities if I am not wrong still insist on this. Then the HSL connection needs to take another way- this is why the HSL southern end now ends in the noweher of green fields.

For Bilbao the situation is more complex: The HSL ends at the eastern outskirts of Bilbao close to the classic line where a third UIC gauge rail could be added. But unfortunately the line ends high up on a viaduct, there is no way to make a connection to the classic line without building new tunnels... (click on "aerial view" on the linked map and zoom in...)

All in all, one can currently list six High Speed lines nearly ready that end in "the nothing" and which can not be easily connected to the classic network (thus requiring bridges, tunnels and above all: A lot of time). They seem blocked for many years now, both for financial reasons and (worse) because of local political will...

To all this add the complexity of UIC / Iberian (re-)gauge and its (non-)decision-making process, plus the post 2008-financial crisis problems: The completion of the current U/C high speed railway network is a growing challenge...
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Last edited by krisu99; December 30th, 2016 at 11:01 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2016, 10:54 AM   #3738
alserrod
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Fine... but not perfect.
Zaragoza station is located in the east side of tunnel and infrastructures could be better managed

http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutur...024)&mt=hybrid
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Old December 30th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #3739
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There is a fundamental difference between Spain and Europe: the different width of passenger trains in Spain; is not enough to change the tension when entering the cities.
And all this so that there are five daily circulations ... in summer; and with few travelers from Spain to France.
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Old December 30th, 2016, 01:47 PM   #3740
arctic_carlos
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@krisu99:

Thanks for your research.

I was also referring to something even more striking than city accesses for HSR (which I think we all agree are always difficult). Just look at HSL under construction such as Vitoria - Bilbao / San Sebastián, Zamora - Ourense, Murcia - Almería, Venta de Baños - Burgos or Sevilla - Antequera; instead of building them as unique projects, they divide civil works contracts (we call them "plataforma" in Spanish) in very short sections (usually 6-8 km long), which are tendered and awarded in different moments to different construction companies. That can mean that completed sections can remain iddle for a very long time, even decades, because there's a short missing section where construction hasn't even started (like the Bergara knot).

I understand why motorways are usually built like that, as independent sections can be opened to traffic without much trouble, but I think it's a huge mistake to use this system for the construction of HSL, especially in Spain where the gauge difference makes partial openings very difficult in many cases. Just look at France: if I'm not mistaken, the construction of the HSL to Bordeaux (more than 300 km) was treated as a single project and thus awarded to just a company (or joint venture), which is going to deliver the line on time.

And then look at the 30 km of completed HSL (civil works) between Murcia and Almería (Vera - Sorbas section) which were built in the middle of nowhere and aren't going to be opened in the short term, as the neighboring sections won't be built anytime soon. That's a waste of money which can't be found anywhere in Europe.
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