daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 30th, 2016, 06:20 PM   #3741
Gusiluz
Jaén (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,578
Likes (Received): 10876

The HSL to Bordeaux is a PPP project so there was no other way.
The tunnels of Almería and the bridges of Extremadura were made to take advantage of the European aid.
The rest is true
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 30th, 2016, 08:35 PM   #3742
krisu99
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Innsbruck
Posts: 139
Likes (Received): 191

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
@krisu99:
--- short sections (usually 6-8 km long), which are tendered and awarded in different moments to different construction companies.

From my observations, the "adjudication de subtramo"-philosophy (tendering by units of project) in Spain are a normal approach. The more complex one section of line is, the shorter the unit of projects are. Thus, "subtramos" of 5km exist when its difficult terrain, but also 30km and more where it is "easy" (i.e. east and north of Zamora- absolutely flat lands with no urbanization)

Dividing long linear projects into smaller units of project ("subtramos") is common more or less everywhere. This is a pragmatic approach and makes sense for several reasons. First, one "handy" unit can be seen as "unit of complexity" which can be handled easier than the overall line as a whole from detail planning to execution.

Another reason is that works on each single unit can start only once detail planning and all necessary agreements are done with local stakeholders. Nowadays this is likely to be the most time consuming task...

Then, it is easier for a pragmatic state to release funds for each single unit of project when ... funding gets available! Thinner slices of Salami... Thus, one huge expenditure (which every HSL line is...) can be spread across several years, resulting in some units of project starting earlier than others (which is not always rational from a project management point of view).

Last but not least, units of projects can be attributed to smaller construction companies (or temporary cooperating ones), which makes it possible to have regional enterprises involved. This is very common and makes sense in terms of regional economic politics.

You mention the example of France, where HSL works seem to advance much faster: This is surely true, but France so far prefers building TGV lines mostly where this is relatively easily feasible: Through wide flat-lands and low density populated areas.
The very few sections that resulted a bit more difficult (TGV Med northern access to Marseille for instance)...also took much more time to be initiated and completed.

Also, France tends to build one or two HSL lines at a time, thus limiting investment flow and planning requirements (now 3, but it is unusual), while Spain believed to splash out a nationwide network at once. Of course this can not work out smoothly, even less if a new gauge is being chosen. Too much of something completely new "immediately" is usually not a wise approach as costly errors may occur ... no time to "learn lessons".


Last but not least, there is nothing like a "Basque-Y" Metro-HSL anywhere else worldwide ... serving 3 regional towns. Personally, I find it a very cool infrastructure, a thrilling idea. I am a fan of such things. But I also understand that it overstretched any budget (being it in crisis times or not).




Factors that may impede works on a unit of project might be among others:
* Detail projecting fails to get agreements with local stakeholders (political process, buorocratic process...)
* Errors were made in the procedure giving local stakeholders the ability to block (happens often, very often. Law suits, re-projecting...).
* There are simply no funding to start a section
* Errors were made when tendering contractors (resulting in law suits...)
* Construction companies go bankrupt (requiring re-tendering, law suits...)
* Scandals arise (bribes etc, even more law suits...)
* Construction methods need to be changed (Eg manual boring instead of TBM because of poor pre-work geological surveys, law suits again...)

Well, everything imaginable may go wrong. Actually, it is a wonder if it goes well.
The missing links in Begara may be a combination of the above? I have no clue. Wasn't there some endless re-planning? Something must have gone wrong (apart missing funds)....


But overall I do not observe particular anomalies in the Spanish "unit of project" system. The HSL sections built in the "nowhere" like the lost Almeria section are more likely to be consequence of too ambitious and naive political decision making (btw: will works start around Pulpi soon?)

The man hindrance to complete the Spanish HSL Network remains the problematic interfacing between ADIF centrally planned sections (mostly finished or u/c) and the near total failure of regional political powers to integrate HSL in a responsible way into "their" territory- that is what I wanted to show in my previous map based analysis.


When will the current U/C lines be completed?
My "guess" based upon current and past practices I could observe:
* Basque Y: 2021
* Pajares Tunnel: 2019 (single track)
* Madrid crossing: 2018 (single track southern entrance)
* Zamora - Ourense: 2023 (mostly single track)
* Extremadura: 2020 (no further new sections, just finish and connect what is there)

Again, I really like the Spanish infrastructure race, I traveled and analyzed most of its lines as good as I could, embracing all perspectives I could get aware of :-)
__________________
.:: The New Rail Infrastructure Observation Project (NRIOP) ::.
Google Earth maps of latest fast railway lines.
Ready so far: Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, Venezuela.

arctic_carlos, Gusiluz, Jordbcn liked this post

Last edited by krisu99; December 30th, 2016 at 09:05 PM.
krisu99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 08:58 PM   #3743
krisu99
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Innsbruck
Posts: 139
Likes (Received): 191

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Fine... but not perfect.
Zaragoza station is located in the east side of tunnel and infrastructures could be better managed

http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutur...024)&mt=hybrid
Well, Zaragoza has gotten a near ideal infrastructure from what I could observe. It is true that the station has been moved to the west along the same "old" alignment, and the line now is underground. But hasn't this main axis been transformed into a useful Cercanías/RER/S-Bahn type of Service, with 4 city stops?

I mean, you could have gotten much worse solutions, like a station 6km from the city center, in the nowhere, reachable only by bus, like Burgos. Burgos now has beautiful parking lots and a through-road instead of the removed city center line... :-)
__________________
.:: The New Rail Infrastructure Observation Project (NRIOP) ::.
Google Earth maps of latest fast railway lines.
Ready so far: Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, Venezuela.
krisu99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 09:01 PM   #3744
krisu99
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Innsbruck
Posts: 139
Likes (Received): 191

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
There is a fundamental difference between Spain and Europe: the different width of passenger trains in Spain; is not enough to change the tension when entering the cities.
And all this so that there are five daily circulations ... in summer; and with few travelers from Spain to France.
Gusiluz, I highly value your expertise in your many interesting contributions. But I really do not understand what you want to express in your message here. Can you rephrase it maybe (in Spanish too) ?
__________________
.:: The New Rail Infrastructure Observation Project (NRIOP) ::.
Google Earth maps of latest fast railway lines.
Ready so far: Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Turkey, Venezuela.
krisu99 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 09:53 PM   #3745
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,714
Likes (Received): 3920

Thanks again for all your interesting comments. It's a very valuable contribution to the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Also, France tends to build one or two HSL lines at a time, thus limiting investment flow and planning requirements (now 3, but it is unusual), while Spain believed to splash out a nationwide network at once. Of course this can not work out smoothly, even less if a new gauge is being chosen. Too much of something completely new "immediately" is usually not a wise approach as costly errors may occur ... no time to "learn lessons".
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
But overall I do not observe particular anomalies in the Spanish "unit of project" system. The HSL sections built in the "nowhere" like the lost Almeria section are more likely to be consequence of too ambitious and naive political decision making (btw: will works start around Pulpi soon?)
This is a good example of the above; instead of prioritizing two or three HSL in particular at each time (like the French do), the decision to build a huge network at once has its victims: isolated sections which won't open in 10 or 15 years (we can also find them in southern Navarre or in the famous Antequera - Seville HSL). Fortunately, it seems that the isolated sections of the HSL in Extremadura will open with Iberian gauge and diesel trains, hopefully in 2 years or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
The missing links in Begara may be a combination of the above? I have no clue. Wasn't there some endless re-planning? Something must have gone wrong (apart missing funds)....
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
* Construction methods need to be changed (Eg manual boring instead of TBM because of poor pre-work geological surveys, law suits again...)
I think it had something to do with this (but in the opposite way); a TBM is going to be used while the original planning didn't envisage it.

Moreover, 2 or 3 different units are going to be merged into a single project (it had also something to do with the choice of using a TBM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
The man hindrance to complete the Spanish HSL Network remains the problematic interfacing between ADIF centrally planned sections (mostly finished or u/c) and the near total failure of regional political powers to integrate HSL in a responsible way into "their" territory- that is what I wanted to show in my previous map based analysis.
I agree to a certain extent, because so far this (evident) lack of coordination and common interests hasn't really prevented the development of the HSR network in Spain.

Once the interurban sections planned by Adif are ready, a provisional integration is always found to put the new HSL into service. Look at the examples of Valencia, Alicante, Valladolid, Palencia or León. Although the lines don't operate at its full potential due to the existence of single-tracked sections or slow accesses, they give an acceptable service.

In my opinion is far more worse to move the stations out of the city centers for greedy reasons (i.e. development of real estate in the areas of the old stations). Nevertheless, in some cases "parkway" stations were the best options to give service to a given area without compromising travel times for end-to-end services or increasing costs (Segovia, Guadalajara or Tarragona could be good examples of that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
When will the current U/C lines be completed?
My "guess" based upon current and past practices I could observe:
* Basque Y: 2021
* Pajares Tunnel: 2019 (single track)
* Madrid crossing: 2018 (single track southern entrance)
* Zamora - Ourense: 2023 (mostly single track)
* Extremadura: 2020 (no further new sections, just finish and connect what is there)
My guess:
  • Madrid crossing (Torrejón de Velasco - Chamartín): 2017 (works are speeding up in the recent weeks)
  • Venta de Baños - Burgos: 2017
  • Camp de Tarragona - Vandellòs: 2017
  • Antequera - Granada: 2017
  • Extremadura (Plasencia - Cáceres - Mérida - Badajoz): 2018
  • Monforte del Cid - Murcia: 2018
  • Zamora - Ourense (there are actually two different sections):
    - Zamora - Pedralba: 2018
    - Pedralba - Ourense: 2023
  • Pajares Tunnel: 2019
  • Basque Y: 2022

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Again, I really like the Spanish infrastructure race, I traveled and analyzed most of its lines as good as I could, embracing all perspectives I could get aware of :-)
Thanks!
__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht

pai nosso, solchante, Jordbcn liked this post

Last edited by arctic_carlos; December 30th, 2016 at 10:30 PM.
arctic_carlos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 10:08 PM   #3746
Gusiluz
Jaén (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,578
Likes (Received): 10876

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Gusiluz, I highly value your expertise in your many interesting contributions. But I really do not understand what you want to express in your message here. Can you rephrase it maybe (in Spanish too) ?
Yeah right. I have a problem with English, and also with the mobile

First thing: thank you very much.

In Spain high-speed trains have another width (not just another electric voltage), so the French solution does not serve to link with the conventional network near the cities.
The solution may be to take the station to the outskirts (Zaragoza was very close to it); To remove a conventional track and change it by a standard one (Valladolid, Palencia, León and Burgos); Or bury the station and do everything new hoping that the land gains paid on the works.

The advantage of the standard width for passenger trains (for export goods is unquestionable) is, finally, to move travelers between countries. Well, now there are 4 daily services round-trip in winter, and 7 in summer, and are sustained thanks to passengers between Madrid and Figueres, and the French domestic passengers. There are very few international travelers on those trains. The announced service Madrid-Paris disappeared long ago from the approaches.

The planning of the works is very complete and long, and depends on many factors. In case it was not enough: there are also politicians.
In 2008 the Madrid-Badajoz-Portuguese border line was announced for 2012 but the crisis appeared, Portugal disassociated itself from the project and Extremadura and Andalusia came out of the great European aid in 2013, so the most important works were built before. Now we have to wait for the line to get there (Almería), or a temporary solution: 200 km/h and diesel and hybrid traction in Extremadura.
...............................................................
En España los trenes de alta velocidad tienen otro ancho (no solo otra tensión eléctrica), así que no sirve la solución francesa de enlazar con la red convencional cerca de las ciudades.
La solución puede ser llevar la estación a las afueras (Zaragoza estuvo muy cerca de ello); quitar una vía convencional y cambiarla por otra de ancho estándar (Valladolid, Palencia, León y Burgos); o soterrar la estación y hacer todo nuevo esperando que las plusvalías de los terrenos pagasen las obras.

La ventaja del ancho estándar para los trenes de viajeros (para las mercancías de exportación es incuestionable) es, finalmente, trasladar viajeros entre países. Bien, ahora hay 4 servicios diarios ida y vuelta en invierno, y 7 en verano, y se sostienen gracias a los viajeros entre Madrid y Figueres, y a los viajeros internos en Francia. Hay muy pocos viajeros internacionales en esos trenes. El anunciado servicio Madrid-París desapareció hace mucho de los planteamientos.

Yo habría construido en ancho estándar solo la línea Barcelona-Figueres (para los Euroduplex a París), y el resto en ancho ibérico. Ahora habría trenes S-130 con ancho variable entre Madrid y Marsella, Madrid-Figueres y Valencia-Figueres; 5 o 7 servicios ida y vuelta diarios diarios, 10 / 14 pasos por cambiador. En 2015 hubo 30.646 pasos por cambiador en España.

La planificación de las obras es muy completa y larga, y depende de muchos factores. Por si fuese poco: también están los políticos.
En 2008 se anunció la línea Madrid-Badajoz-Frontera portuguesa para 2012 pero apareció la crisis, Portugal se desvinculó del proyecto y Extremadura y Andalucía salían de las grandes ayudas europeas en 2013, así que se construyeron antes las obras más importantes. Ahora hay que esperar que la línea llegue hasta allí (Almería), o una solución provisional: 200 km/h y tracción diésel e híbrida en Extremadura.
__________________

arctic_carlos, bifhihher, Jordbcn liked this post
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 11:03 PM   #3747
Ribarca
Registered User
 
Ribarca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 6,691
Likes (Received): 3337

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
D

Madrid radial tolled motorways: they'd be doing ok if they had been free motorways instead of tolled motorways. The government has had to bail them out. However, lately, they're seeing an increase in transit, as Madrid keeps on growing and the country is (very) slowly leaving the crisis behind, bit by bit.
They would never have been built if it were not troll road. It could not have been financed. Financing was based on (false) claims about usage and thus revenue.

Cases like these should be studied through and through. It cannot be the case that the common man has to bail out construction companies time and time again. And the common man outside of Madrid has zero gain from it.
__________________
This is my world,and I am the World Leader Pretend.


Hong Kong by Xavibarca, www.xavibarca.com

Gusiluz, franciscoc liked this post
Ribarca no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 04:44 AM   #3748
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,989
Likes (Received): 15402

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Just look at France: if I'm not mistaken, the construction of the HSL to Bordeaux (more than 300 km) was treated as a single project and thus awarded to just a company (or joint venture), which is going to deliver the line on time.
Not only is it a PPP like Gusiluz said, but it's the delay that its construction took that has made possible that the whole section from Tours to Bordeaux will open in just one go.
In the beginning, it was planned to divide it in two sections (Tours-Angoulême and Angoulême-Bordeaux), that would have opened at different times (can't remember which one would open first).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
And then look at the 30 km of completed HSL (civil works) between Murcia and Almería (Vera - Sorbas section) which were built in the middle of nowhere and aren't going to be opened in the short term, as the neighboring sections won't be built anytime soon. That's a waste of money which can't be found anywhere in Europe.
Dunno. If the aim was to secure EU funding for that, I'm fine with that.

After all, it is a money that in the end will be put to use, only that sometimes it takes long.

Later on, they won't need the money that they'd need for the construction of that section, because the investment's already been made.

The only real handicap is that it needs a maintenance (but less than if the line were open), and that it's rather unnerving if you are a local and see how long it takes before it opens.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

Last edited by 437.001; December 31st, 2016 at 04:52 AM.
437.001 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 06:18 AM   #3749
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

@Gusluiz: just a friendly hint - what you are writtinf 'width' (for "ancho") is usually called gauge in English, if you are referring to the distance between the rail Tracks (1680mm vs 1435mm)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Gusiluz liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 12:05 PM   #3750
arctic_carlos
Recondita armonia
 
arctic_carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sitges - Barcelona
Posts: 4,714
Likes (Received): 3920

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Not only is it a PPP like Gusiluz said, but it's the delay that its construction took that has made possible that the whole section from Tours to Bordeaux will open in just one go.
In the beginning, it was planned to divide it in two sections (Tours-Angoulême and Angoulême-Bordeaux), that would have opened at different times (can't remember which one would open first).
Alright. But at least they had planned two sections which could be opened independently, not just finishing in the middle of a cabbage field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Dunno. If the aim was to secure EU funding for that, I'm fine with that.

After all, it is a money that in the end will be put to use, only that sometimes it takes long.

Later on, they won't need the money that they'd need for the construction of that section, because the investment's already been made.

The only real handicap is that it needs a maintenance (but less than if the line were open), and that it's rather unnerving if you are a local and see how long it takes before it opens.
Then it makes more sense. But anyway they could have started the construction of the line with Pulpí - Vera (26 km), where a station is planned, so a partial opening would have been possible (even in Iberian gauge and with diesel trains, as a temporary solution).

Maybe I should say absolute lack of planning instead of waste of money, as the line will eventually enter into service. But that 27 km stretch between Vera and Los Arejos was completed 5 years ago and won't see any trains at least for 10 more years (and I'm being very optimistic about it).

Deeply regretting it, I think that currently the prospects of this line being completed anytime soon are as bright as in the case of Antequera- Seville HSL.

Picture of the completed section from wikipedia:

__________________
Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.

Bertolt Brecht
arctic_carlos no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 12:15 PM   #3751
hammersklavier
Feral
 
hammersklavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 597
Likes (Received): 423

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Yeah right. I have a problem with English, and also with the mobile

First thing: thank you very much.

In Spain high-speed trains have another width (not just another electric voltage), so the French solution does not serve to link with the conventional network near the cities.
The solution may be to take the station to the outskirts (Zaragoza was very close to it); To remove a conventional track and change it by a standard one (Valladolid, Palencia, León and Burgos); Or bury the station and do everything new hoping that the land gains paid on the works.

The advantage of the standard width for passenger trains (for export goods is unquestionable) is, finally, to move travelers between countries. Well, now there are 4 daily services round-trip in winter, and 7 in summer, and are sustained thanks to passengers between Madrid and Figueres, and the French domestic passengers. There are very few international travelers on those trains. The announced service Madrid-Paris disappeared long ago from the approaches.

The planning of the works is very complete and long, and depends on many factors. In case it was not enough: there are also politicians.
In 2008 the Madrid-Badajoz-Portuguese border line was announced for 2012 but the crisis appeared, Portugal disassociated itself from the project and Extremadura and Andalusia came out of the great European aid in 2013, so the most important works were built before. Now we have to wait for the line to get there (Almería), or a temporary solution: 200 km/h and diesel and hybrid traction in Extremadura.
...............................................................
En España los trenes de alta velocidad tienen otro ancho (no solo otra tensión eléctrica), así que no sirve la solución francesa de enlazar con la red convencional cerca de las ciudades.
La solución puede ser llevar la estación a las afueras (Zaragoza estuvo muy cerca de ello); quitar una vía convencional y cambiarla por otra de ancho estándar (Valladolid, Palencia, León y Burgos); o soterrar la estación y hacer todo nuevo esperando que las plusvalías de los terrenos pagasen las obras.

La ventaja del ancho estándar para los trenes de viajeros (para las mercancías de exportación es incuestionable) es, finalmente, trasladar viajeros entre países. Bien, ahora hay 4 servicios diarios ida y vuelta en invierno, y 7 en verano, y se sostienen gracias a los viajeros entre Madrid y Figueres, y a los viajeros internos en Francia. Hay muy pocos viajeros internacionales en esos trenes. El anunciado servicio Madrid-París desapareció hace mucho de los planteamientos.

Yo habría construido en ancho estándar solo la línea Barcelona-Figueres (para los Euroduplex a París), y el resto en ancho ibérico. Ahora habría trenes S-130 con ancho variable entre Madrid y Marsella, Madrid-Figueres y Valencia-Figueres; 5 o 7 servicios ida y vuelta diarios diarios, 10 / 14 pasos por cambiador. En 2015 hubo 30.646 pasos por cambiador en España.

La planificación de las obras es muy completa y larga, y depende de muchos factores. Por si fuese poco: también están los políticos.
En 2008 se anunció la línea Madrid-Badajoz-Frontera portuguesa para 2012 pero apareció la crisis, Portugal se desvinculó del proyecto y Extremadura y Andalucía salían de las grandes ayudas europeas en 2013, así que se construyeron antes las obras más importantes. Ahora hay que esperar que la línea llegue hasta allí (Almería), o una solución provisional: 200 km/h y tracción diésel e híbrida en Extremadura.
If you permit me to try to interpret this, what you're trying to get at is:

The Spanish HSR network is built to a different gauge standard than the mainline network. In this, it is more akin to the Japanese Shinkansen and less akin to the French, German, and Italian solutions. (It isn't quite as extreme as Japan's situation, but the basic fact remains that you need specialized trainsets, such as the Talgos used in Alvia service, to move from the HSLs to the classical lines.) This makes it significantly more difficult to integrate HSR into the existing network than it is in the rest of Western Europe.

Would I be about correct in my summary?
hammersklavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 01:08 PM   #3752
Gusiluz
Jaén (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,578
Likes (Received): 10876

In fact, I could not have done better
I tried to warn of those problems in the HS Thread in India, but they tell me that it is better in standard gauge because the trains are already designed like this. As if they were motorcars in a chain factory.

On the other hand, a news of this same week is that the section Lorca-Pulpí will be constructed in double track, the minister said; The rest, to Almería, single track in platform for double track. They want to make a logistics terminal in Pulpí.
__________________

arctic_carlos liked this post
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2017, 06:46 AM   #3753
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,989
Likes (Received): 15402

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
On the other hand, a news of this same week is that the section Lorca-Pulpí will be constructed in double track, the minister said; The rest, to Almería, single track in platform for double track. They want to make a logistics terminal in Pulpí.
Where exactly? Can't find it...

edit: found! Took me a while. Thanks for the tip.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

Last edited by 437.001; January 1st, 2017 at 07:04 AM.
437.001 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 11:45 AM   #3754
clickgr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Friedrichshafen
Posts: 409
Likes (Received): 139

A few days ago I had the chance to compare the interior of the coaches (2nd class) of the Talgo 350 (AVE S-102) to Velaro (AVE S-103) side by side on my trip from Huesca to Barcelona, via changing train in Zaragoza.

First I had to say that the previous seat configuration in the Talgo coaches was my favourite one, before they change it a few of years ago. There was much space for the legs in every seat position and you could easily lay down the seat to sleep without loosing comfort and without minding you may bother the person seating behind you. The Velaro seats had a bit less space for the legs but still relatively comfortable.

Now the seats in the new Talgo coaches are just awful! The space for the legs has been significantly reduced, almost to the same level as the Velaro seats when they are in vertical position. However, in lay down position there is even bigger difference. The trash can between the two seats in front is a big pain! Your legs hit on this metal can all the time if you have a person sitting next to you and you cannot extend your legs to the right or to the left, which eventually makes lay down position totally impractical (in Velaro coaches the trash can is located in a different place, further down and it is smaller). Moreover I noticed that the Talgo seats do not go as far down as the Velaro seats (I suspect they have even less space between the front and the back seat than in Velaro). I am not a very tall person, I would say an average sized, just 1.80m tall, and I found the new Talgo seats very uncomfortable in the lay down position.
__________________

kbbcn, Manamer liked this post
clickgr no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 12:36 PM   #3755
kbbcn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Barcelona, Catalunya
Posts: 213
Likes (Received): 61


But somehow we have to believe that the seats on the new Talgo trains with 3+2 seating are going to be miraculously very comfortable. For those who still do: stop dreaming!

(Thanks for this comparison, by the way...)
__________________

clickgr, Manamer, Robi_damian liked this post
kbbcn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 02:52 PM   #3756
roaddor
In the brig
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Sofia, München
Posts: 5,434
Likes (Received): 5477

Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?
roaddor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 04:39 PM   #3757
clickgr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Friedrichshafen
Posts: 409
Likes (Received): 139

Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?
If you want to travel from the city centre of Madrid to the city centre of Barcelona, then the AVE is definitely the best way to do so. Only 2 and half hours journey non stop and if you book your ticket a bit early on, price is very reasonable.
__________________

roaddor, arctic_carlos liked this post
clickgr no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 05:24 PM   #3758
roaddor
In the brig
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Sofia, München
Posts: 5,434
Likes (Received): 5477

Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?

__________________

dimlys1994, Shenkey, pai nosso liked this post
roaddor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 05:54 PM   #3759
dimlys1994
Moderator
 
dimlys1994's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dniepropetrovsk
Posts: 16,338
Likes (Received): 26128

From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

FCC completes boring of Bolaños tunnels
Monday, January 09, 2017



SPANISH infrastructure group FCC Construction announced on January 6 that it has completed the boring of the Bolaños tunnels on the Madrid - Galicia high-speed line

The work comprised the delivery of two 6.7km parallel single-track tunnels along the Verín - Ourense section of the line

...
__________________
Для Вас:
Страница в ВК:

For you:
Facebook & Flickr pages
dimlys1994 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #3760
Gusiluz
Jaén (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,578
Likes (Received): 10876

Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?
Share of market between train and airplane

I have just finished this list, which aims to increase and update.

The UIC data (80%) refers to the mean HST that take less than 150 minutes.
The figure for China is the total of CRH trains compared to domestic flights.






__________________
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
adif, ave, high speed rail, spain in the world, valencia, zaragoza

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium