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Old January 9th, 2017, 07:50 PM   #3761
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Quote:
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Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?
If the aim is to link Madrid and Lisbon, wouldn't it make more sense to link Merida and Puertollano then use the Seville-Madrid line? Surely that line can't be that much congested. That line to Plasencia just seems to be a huge wastage of resources.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 08:46 PM   #3762
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Plasencia, Cáceres, Mérida and Badajoz are also the main cities in Extremadura Region. The aim is to connect them too.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 09:42 PM   #3763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?

[IMG] http://www.bez.es/images/carpeta_rel...ctubre2016.jpg [/IMG]
The map contains some inaccuracies.

As for how does the country cope with the expenditures, the answer is complex.

The country wants to have a fast access to every part of the country, the sooner the better, but doesn't like its cost.

Besides, the people in the country knows not a lot about how costly it actually is. It's not as expensive as they like to think (not that it is a bargain anyway!).

The different parts of the country consider that they should be the first to have a HSL, and they feel discriminated if they're not the first on the list to have it.

The country has had to slow down the rate of expansion of the HSR network at Brussels's request. But the plans will be implemented, only that at a less fast pace.

Several cities of the country are showing signs of NIMBY-ism, as they insist for their stations be removed from the city centre, or want them underground "to eliminate the urban scar that has become the railway line".

There are more railway passengers than ever. Every addition to the HSR network brings more new passengers into the network.
However, Renfe is starting to have a serious shortage of rolling stock.

Liberalization is being delayed. It's not good to make decisions when the EU is going through a major crisis that will have yet-unknown consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
If the aim is to link Madrid and Lisbon, wouldn't it make more sense to link Merida and Puertollano then use the Seville-Madrid line? Surely that line can't be that much congested. That line to Plasencia just seems to be a huge wastage of resources.
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Originally Posted by parrocho View Post
Plasencia, Cáceres, Mérida and Badajoz are also the main cities in Extremadura Region. The aim is to connect them too.
It should be added that the line between Puertollano and Merida crosses the west of the Ciudad Real province, which is rather unpopulated and mountainous.

That's not the case of the line via Caceres, which is more evenly populated, and more populated overall, serving some regional mid-size cities, and runs through wider, less mountainous valleys (mainly the Tagus valley).

Last but not least, the travel time to Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona would be longer via Ciudad Real, unless they made a costly upgrade of the section between Cabeza del Buey and Puertollano (or a full HSL).

So no, the right thing to do is to go via Caceres and Plasencia.

As for it being a huge waste of resources...

It will be a waste of resources if the Portuguese don't build the connection between Evora and Badajoz.
That's why it's being kept in a bit of a standstill. However, it will be a rather big improvement for the Extremadura region.

That said, it's not more costly that other HSL's which are already in use, or being built (Madrid-Barcelona HSL, Madrid-Seville HSL, Cordoba-Malaga HSL, Galicia HSL, Basque Y). It's only that it has a couple of big viaducts. And the part that has started works (Navalmoral-Badajoz, particularly the section between Plasencia and Merida) is the most complicated. But it's not the most complicated to build of all the HSL's in Spain.

Let's hope the Portuguese start works on their part of the line as soon as possible.
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Old January 9th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #3764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
The map contains some inaccuracies.
In what way is the map wrong? Sure, I am not aware of the details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
The different parts of the country consider that they should be the first to have a HSL, and they feel discriminated if they're not the first on the list to have it.
Hard choice to prioritize.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:16 AM   #3765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?
50% of the investment came from European funds.
Other countries did not play their part and lost it.

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Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
Very few inaccuracies. I have seen worse maps in Spain.
Olmedo (Valladolid)-Zamora is already in service.
Olmedo-Salamanca has nothing to do with HS, it was simply electrified for the Alvia HS trains to arrive. That is: it is already in service but it is not HS.
Sevilla-Cádiz is the conventional line duplicated and with some variant, maximum speed: 200 in some sections.
On the other hand it is the same as A Coruña-Vigo.
Zaragoza-Huesca is the conventional line changed gauge and electrified, maximum: 160 / 200.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #3766
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Very few inaccuracies. I have seen worse maps in Spain.
So to speak.

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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Olmedo (Valladolid)-Zamora is already in service.
Olmedo-Salamanca has nothing to do with HS, it was simply electrified for the Alvia HS trains to arrive. That is: it is already in service but it is not HS.
Sevilla-Cádiz is the conventional line duplicated and with some variant, maximum speed: 200 in some sections.
On the other hand it is the same as A Coruña-Vigo.
Right.

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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Zaragoza-Huesca is the conventional line changed gauge and electrified, maximum: 160 / 200.
Er... not exactly.

Zaragoza-Tardienta is an entirely new line, which runs parallel to the old classic line (which is still in use).
Tardienta-Huesca didn't exactly change gauge, it was a 3rd rail that was added. What was changed was the OHLE and its tension.
As for its maximum speeds, you were right.

But I guess you already knew.

-------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, the map above included Valencia-Castellon as a HSL, which is debatable.

And they include Castejon-Pamplona, which as far as I'm aware, it only barely started works in a very small section, then these were halted and there's no way they're going ahead anytime soon.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #3767
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Yes, Castejón-Pamplona does not have a known horizon, although it appears in all the maps.

Well, to be more exact in the old dual-track Zaragoza-Tardienta section, one of the tracks was changed to a standard gauge with a maximum speed of 200 (with some new variant: 10,5 km), and the old single-track section Tardienta-Huesca was changed to mixed gauge (3rd rail) with a speed maximum of 160. It appears on all HS maps, but can not be considered as such, the average speed is 109 km/h.
I was talking about what was new line or not.

As for the gauge (in case of iberian gauge which forces Alvia services instead of AVE), isolated sections of Galicia (Ourense-Santiago and A Coruña-Vigo) and the one being built in Extremadura (Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Badajoz) are in iberian gauge, which will be changed (the sleepers and points have holes to move the rail, although it will not be easy) to the standard gauge when the line arrives there. The new line between Plasencia and Bajadoz will not be electrified, conventional trains will be placed with diesel locomotive to Badajoz (1) and Mérida (1), and Alvia S-730 dual (hybrid) trains (2) to Badajoz entering Mérida (1 of them, in addition, in Plasencia).
Seville-Cádiz is also Iberian gauge (there are commuter and freight), Tardienta-Huesca mixed gauge, and then there are new ones lines:

Valencia-Castellón has changed one of the existing tracks to the mixed gauge, trains can only cross in Sagunto.
Tarragona-Vilaseca-Vandellós in iberian gauge double track, although it is new.
Valencia-La Encina will have a new route up to Játiva and from 2004 to La Encina, all in double track and standard gauge.
La Encina-Alicante will be with the current single track with mixed gauge.
Monforte del Cid-Murcia: new route (one track in standard and the other in iberian) and entry in Murcia with mixed gauge by existing track.
Murcia-Cartagena: will be with the current single track with mixed gauge.
Murcia-Almería: without deadlines, double track to Pulpí and simple until Almeria.
Antequera-Granada: part is new platform with double and single track, and the passage through Loja (27 km) and the entrance in Granada (1.1 km) by the conventional with mixed gauge.
Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (To the South, to join the HSL to Valencia) is all new, although the part of the tunnel that is under Atocha (without possible communication with this one, until several years) is unique track.
Zamora-Pedralba-Taboadela is a new platform with a single track with small double tracks, and the section Zamora-Montamarta (17 km) is a new track in standard gauge and change the old track to the mixed gauge. The section Taboadela-Ourense is not yet known: o new platform or mixed gauge.
Venta de Baños (Palencia)-Burgos: all with a single track.
Tunnels of Pajares (Asturias-León): only a tube with iberian gauge. Without date.
Y Vasca: double standard gauge with entrance to the cities (still not very clear) in mixed gauge. Many problems, especially in the Vergara Knot (the union of the Y).

The most expensive works (viaducts and tunnels) in Extremadura and Andalusia were made before 2013 to take advantage of the greater European aid, if they had not been lost.
The new platforms are built for double track, although there are sections with single track.

The Castellbisbal (Barcelona)-Castellón freight connection will be made by one of the current tracks through mixed gauge.

Very complicated, as you can see.
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Last edited by Gusiluz; January 10th, 2017 at 02:18 PM. Reason: That I forgot, the new line between Plasencia and Bajadoz will not be electrified
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:04 PM   #3768
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The biggest waste of money for me in all those projects is the Y shape line in the Basque country. Why the hell do you need to connect all these 3 Basque cities (Bilbao, Vitoria and St. Sebastian) via high speed line, given the very difficult terrain of the Basque country side for building HSR lines and given the close distance they are located these 3 cities one another?

They should have built just one HS line connecting the biggest and more industrialized of them (Bilbao) to Madrid or even better to Zaragoza and then via the existing Madrid-Barcelona line to Madrid and to Barcelona. The other two cities if they are not on the way of this new line could have access to the HS network simply via conventional lines connected to the new HS line at some intermediate station.

The Basque Y line is a nice to have but for its huge construction cost I think there are other lines to give priority in construction, like for example connecting Barcelona to Valencia or Seville to Malaga.

At least they could have finish first the section Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria before they start building the Basque Y. From commercial point of view it would make much more sense.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #3769
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There are three points I'd like to raise:

- Vitoria is located on a flat area, and it's important enough as a city to make any HSL towards Bilbao from either Valladolid or Zaragoza serve it. Any HSL to Bilbao will be very costly due to the terrain of the area, so the costs of building it via the current line or via Vitoria aren't going to be very different. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the 19th century, now that we have better means.

- Bilbao and San Sebastián are the centers of the two main industrial areas in the Basque Country. Although Bilbao is bigger, the area around San Sebastián (not just the city itself) has a large population and it's also an important touristic destination. Both cities are currently linked by a meter-gauge railway line with horrible travel times, but which gives a good service to the intermediate towns (like Durango or Eibar). I mean, there's nothing akin to a classic line which could be connected to the Vitoria - Bilbao leg of the Y to make it cheaper.

- And finally, San Sebastián is very close to the French border, so the Y will be connected to the French network (mixed gauge is being installed on the classic line between San Sebastián and the border at Irun/Hendaye). Hence, AVE/TGV and, above all, freight trains, will be able to continue towards France without changing gauge at the border.

In my opinion, is the combination of the above what makes the Basque Y a necessary investment.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #3770
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In my opinion Basque Y is more useful than, for example, the line to Galicia or Extremadura. Even better would have been a full scale HSR between Vitoria and Burgos as well.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #3771
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The full HSL Burgos - Vitoria hasn't been completely ruled out. In fact, many people believe that the new Public Works Minister will give priority to the project again.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 08:19 PM   #3772
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Quote:
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That's not the case of the line via Caceres, which is more evenly populated, and more populated overall, serving some regional mid-size cities, and runs through wider, less mountainous valleys (mainly the Tagus valley).

Last but not least, the travel time to Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona would be longer via Ciudad Real, unless they made a costly upgrade of the section between Cabeza del Buey and Puertollano (or a full HSL).
True, but according to Wikipedia Valencia has an urban population of 1.6m, and Barcelona 4.7m.

The combined population of those 4 cities on the Portuguese HSL does not even reach 350K what's the budget for this line? I can't find the information on google, but whatever the cost is, 450km of new HSR to join such small cities seems ridiculous, especially when you look at the existing gaps in the Spanish network such as Barcelona-Valencia or Seville-Malaga.
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Old January 10th, 2017, 08:34 PM   #3773
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50% of the investment came from European funds.
Other countries did not play their part and lost it.
This is interesting, what do you mean other countries did not play their part and lost it? All countries, I believe, want to have such HS lines, the faster the better. It should be noted that those with bigger areas such as France, Spain, Germany, Italy are likely to build such lines and Spain has constructed a whole network which is impressive. Alright, not everything is for 300, but even if you are riding through most of the country with 200-220, this is a very good speed.

What do the white sections mean, not started yet?
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Old January 10th, 2017, 11:55 PM   #3774
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I am referring to some countries, to give just one example: Portugal, did not submit projects so as not to have to pay their share, and lost their opportunity. If it were not for the European aid to the HSL the railroad as a mode of transport of passengers in Spain would be completely insignificant.

The white sections are those where you do not know what will happen: new platform or mixed gauge?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:29 AM   #3775
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I still hope a new French government might approve funds to build a Toulouse-Zaragoza HSL on the French side.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:43 AM   #3776
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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
There are three points I'd like to raise:

- Vitoria is located on a flat area, and it's important enough as a city to make any HSL towards Bilbao from either Valladolid or Zaragoza serve it. Any HSL to Bilbao will be very costly due to the terrain of the area, so the costs of building it via the current line or via Vitoria aren't going to be very different. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the 19th century, now that we have better means.

- Bilbao and San Sebastián are the centers of the two main industrial areas in the Basque Country. Although Bilbao is bigger, the area around San Sebastián (not just the city itself) has a large population and it's also an important touristic destination. Both cities are currently linked by a meter-gauge railway line with horrible travel times, but which gives a good service to the intermediate towns (like Durango or Eibar). I mean, there's nothing akin to a classic line which could be connected to the Vitoria - Bilbao leg of the Y to make it cheaper.

- And finally, San Sebastián is very close to the French border, so the Y will be connected to the French network (mixed gauge is being installed on the classic line between San Sebastián and the border at Irun/Hendaye). Hence, AVE/TGV and, above all, freight trains, will be able to continue towards France without changing gauge at the border.

In my opinion, is the combination of the above what makes the Basque Y a necessary investment.
Good points. I do not disagree that the Basque Y can be useful in long term. My objection is in the priority given to this line compared to others.

The French HSR network is not expected to reach the Spanish-French border near San Sebastian in the next 15 years at best. Since Vitoria is located in the easiest terrain among the rest of the Basque main cities, wouldn't be more reasonable to start first with building a line connecting Vitoria to the rest of the Spanish high speed network, rather than starring building a Basque Y isolated from both the Spanish and the French HS network?

In an ideal world where funds are unlimited yes you can start investing on the Basque Y from time 0 in parallel with other projects. But in reality if Refe had focused first to the Vitoria-Zaragoza connection or at least to the Vitoria-Valladolid connection, today the Basque country could have access to the AVE network, maybe even much earlier than today, and in the mean time could have made some revenues out of this line, which could help to proceed to the next reasonable step which is to connect Bilbao to the network and after that at later point of time, the third reasonable step to connect San Sebastian. Step by step.

In the end you would have the same result but the whole process would have been speeded up due to the earlier revenues and the biggest acceptance of the project by the public who sees the benefits of the AVE network earlier.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:19 AM   #3777
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Au contraire, I think it is best to start at the most difficult and expensive sectors such that there is enormous political and social pressure to complete full links afterwards.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #3778
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I still hope a new French government might approve funds to build a Toulouse-Zaragoza HSL on the French side.
Perhaps they should complete first and foremost Montpellier - Perpignan and Bordeaux - Hendaye (or at least up to Dax). It make sense to complete the main corridors on both sides of the border before starting new lines.

And well, I honestly think that two HSR connections between France and Spain are more than enough. Between Huesca and Pau the classic line needs a complete overhaul and a reopenig of the closed section in France (Bedous - Canfranc, including the international tunnel), as well as the regauging of the Spanish part to standard gauge. That would be enough to make that line attractive to freight trains. With regards to passenger services, there could be some Zaragoza - Pau services, but maybe it's too optimistic to think about Zaragoza - Toulouse services (even TGV between Barcelona and Toulouse were discontinued in the winter season due to low patronage).
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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #3779
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Maybe they should start by better using the (expensive) tunnel that already exists. There are still only maximum 7 passenger trains between Figueres and Perpignan each day. With so many more AVEs arriving at Figueres and TGVs leaving from Perpignan, a shuttle between would be the most logical thing to do.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #3780
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I think with better connections the Mid-Pyrenees could see a development boom like the Westerns Alps had. Imagine if Jaca becomes something like Annecy or Albertville, and if the valley is heavily built up north. Or if they build a railway through Biescas and then some spur east so that Monte Perdido becomes a heavily visited place like the Eiger or Mottherhorn. I feel Pyreneean mountains are passed over and ignored by many because it is not exactly easy to reach them, there is limited infrastructure at their foothills, it is not like you can make a day-trip up and down from a nearby mid-size city (like you can visit the Junfgrau out of Bern or the Zugspitze out of the 2nd largest German city). So fast rail link to the Pyrenees would spur a lot of mountain development, not necessarily for skiing but things like gondolas, easy trails, view and vantage points, hillside hotels etc.
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