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Old April 21st, 2017, 09:49 PM   #3841
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Since this month, every 25th, 25.000 tickets for AVE at 25 euro
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 12:20 PM   #3842
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25 years of high speed in Spain

Data from the FFE publication: Atlas Alta Velocidad Ferroviaria en España. In English this is another one during the 20th anniversary.

We had to wait 25 years, but at last we have the actual data (with nuances) of HS passengers. The real ones. Including Alvia and T200 in the sections in which they circulate by HSR.
The brands of HS services in Spain are: AVE (long distance, fixed standard gauge, 300 km/h), Alvia (long distance, variable gauge, 250 km/h on HSR / 220 on conventional lines), Avant (middle distance and commuter, fixed standard gauge, 250 km/h).

So far we were given the data of what they called AVE-LD (ministry), which are those of all LD (including nocturnal) but without Avant (!); AVE and Avant (Spanish statistics); and even (when interested, for example: the very powerful defense groups at airports and motorways) only AVE.

Nevertheless, they would also need all passengers in Alvia (although all their trip was about conventional) since that's how they give the data in Germany, France, Italy ... call HS passengers to all who climbed on a TGV, ICE or Frecce. All the details in: How many high-speed passenger in the world?

However, according to Renfe / Fomento / INE, the total was 191,522 M in AVE (179,323 according to FFE) and 80,001 M in Avant (79,948 according to FFE).
In 2016 Fomento published 20,352 M in AVE (20,346 according to FFE) and 7,3631 M in Avant (7,3052 according to FFE).
In the maps on density there are no Alvia to Galicia, nothing of the inaugurated in 2015 and 2016 nor the Avant of the Atlantic Axis (2015).



25 years of AVE have been 325,373 M passengers (13 M average per year); 179,323 M in AVE trains (55.1%), 66,102 M in Alvia and T200 only by HSR (20.3%) and 79.948 M in Avant (24.6%).
118,089 M of passengers-km (4,724 M of average per year); 80.149.7 M in AVE trains (67.9%), 27.633.0 M in Alvia and T200 only in HSR (23.4%) and 10,306.3 M in Avant (8.7%).
To give us an idea, in 2016 there were 410 M of passengers and 7,818 M of passengers-km in Cercanías (commuter), while in HS they were 34,694 M of passengers and 13,429 M of passengers-km (in total they traveled 71.8% more).
In 2016 there were 11.4692 M of Passengers and 4 771.5 M of Passengers-km in what they call conventional LD; of them, 61% are from Alvia on LAV and 65% are Alvia passengers (by any line) of what they call "conventional LD".

Density AV (AVE, Alvia y Avant):


Density AVE:


Density Alvia:


Density Avant:


Main routes:


Average speeds 1986 and 2016:


Evolution of travel times since 1942:
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 12:47 PM   #3843
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Second lot of Talgo Avril

During the ceremony, the government announced that will exert the purchase option for the second lot of 15 Talgo Avril trains, although the latter will be of variable gauge.

The first 15 trains (106 series) from the year 2020 and the calculation of the second series (122 series) from 2024 to 2027.

The Talgo Avril G3 trains have two locomotives and 12 trailers, 519 seats in a length of 202 meters, 3200 mm wide complying with the UIC clearance gauge, 8,800 kW with ABB traction chain, and a top speed of 330 km/h.













Current prototype:


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Old April 22nd, 2017, 12:51 PM   #3844
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Where on these maps and tables is Madrid-Toledo high speed railway?
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 12:57 PM   #3845
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Are only 20.7 km, you have to look at the line from Madrid to the south, a very small line to the left:

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Old April 22nd, 2017, 01:08 PM   #3846
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Gus Luiz, thank you for these detailed graphs and tables.
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 02:05 PM   #3847
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Thanks a lot for the detailed data! Looking at this I was wondering whether perhaps the equilibrium with other modes of traffic has not yet been reached on newer lines (everything except Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Zaragoza). Otherwise difficult to explain why, for example, Cordoba-Sevilla branch is more busy than Cordoba-Malaga and why Madrid-Valencia is not just as busy as Madrid-Sevilla. Even Madrid-Barcelona might not have reached it's full potential yet. Read elsewhere that it's 60% train vs plane. Given the travel time foreign experience indicates that it should be closer to 80%.
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 08:21 PM   #3848
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You Are Welcome.

Seville is much larger than Malaga, and Cordoba-Seville traffic benefits from the Alvia to Cadiz: 766,000 in 2016.

Madrid-Valencia is at 89.6% with the plane, little can increase. The problem is that the road is free.

Madrid-Barcelona is now (all 2016) at 62.9%, and up.
The problem is that there are a large number of business passengers going to the Madrid Airport area (IFEMA trade show, Juan Carlos I business park, industrial estates...) which is closer to the airport than to the Atocha station. A pity.

Last edited by Gusiluz; April 22nd, 2017 at 08:27 PM.
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Old April 22nd, 2017, 11:08 PM   #3849
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How up to date is this map today?
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 12:53 AM   #3850
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I would say it's 100% updated, since it includes the most recent openings in 2015 (Valladolid - León and Olmedo - Zamora), and there haven't been any significant changes ever since.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 01:21 AM   #3851
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I would say that between Teruel and Zaragoza, there are some streches where trains can run 200 but with some limits up to 20, hence they do not speed too much because they will have to stop soon.

In addition, all trains are limited to 160. I would erase from list...
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 01:50 PM   #3852
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Calendar schedule

Small details
Medina AV-Salamanca is the conventional line but electrified, no HSR.
Sevilla-Cádiz is fully finished except ERTMS.
Xátiva-La Encina (between Valencia and Alicante) is at 200 km/h but it is necessary to change the gauge after making a new track for the traffic in Iberian gauge.

It's very good.

Obviously the section Plasencia-Badajoz will open in Iberian gauge when being isolated.



This is what I have found as announced by Fomento (or by the Subdelegates of Government, Senators ...) to the media as a result of the presentation - pending discussion and approval - of the Budgets for 2017 (I simply transcribe what was announced, obviating the barbarities):

Valencia-Castellón: in tests since 03/20/2017. € 222 million to € 3.02 million per km (single track of mixed gauge-third rail).
Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (link north and south lines of Madrid): end of works in the first quarter of 2018. 826 M € to 23,80 M € per km.
Antequera-Granada: end of the works in November 2017 and in service in March 2018. 2 h 45 m Madrid (205 km/h on average, previously announced 2 h 50 m), 2 h from Seville (174 km/h) and 58 m from Malaga (165 km/h on average). A total investment of 1,870 M € (13.91 per km including 28 km of mixed gauge).
Monforte del Cid-Murcia: end of the works in December 2017.
LAV Madrid-Barcelona-Vilaseca (Tarragona)-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.
Node of Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of the works before summer of 2018.
Astigarraga (San Sebastián) - French border: 20.5 km with mixed gauge (at 8 M x ​​km of double track) so that, in 2019, some Euroduplex Océane can be circulated to Paris.
LAP Plasencia-Badajoz: end of works at the end of 2019; In service at the beginning of 2020 and Plasencia-Badajoz electrification by the end of 2020.
Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de la Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019. 51.8 km of new standard double track and change gauge to 41.2 km.
Zamora-Pedralba: in service at the end of 2018 with station in Otero de Sanabria, Pedralba-Ourense in phase of tests at the end of 2019 with a gauge changer in Taboadela: for Alvias in the 1st phase and for Lugo and Ferrol in the 2nd and with mixed gauge Taboadela-Ourense.
Y Basque: according to the Basque minister: "being tremendously optimistic, the works could conclude in 2022, although I think it will be from 2023."
Murcia-Almería: 2023
Pajares variant: the West tunnel in service at the beginning of 2019 unless the gauge has to be changed, in which case it would be 2021 according to the Asturian adviser
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 02:30 PM   #3853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
This is what I have found as announced by Fomento (or by the Subdelegates of Government, Senators ...) to the media as a result of the presentation - pending discussion and approval - of the Budgets for 2017 (I simply transcribe what was announced, obviating the barbarities):
I'm not at all sure they could be trusted, but if yes then it's not so bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (link north and south lines of Madrid): end of works in the first quarter of 2018. 826 M € to 23,80 M € per km.
Is it right that after this is in service there will be no more overlap between Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Valencia/Alicante routes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Antequera-Granada: end of the works in November 2017 and in service in March 2018. 2 h 45 m Madrid (205 km/h on average, previously announced 2 h 50 m), 2 h from Seville (174 km/h) and 58 m from Malaga (165 km/h on average). A total investment of 1,870 M € (13.91 per km including 28 km of mixed gauge).
This is great, albeit of course one has to remember that Granada-Sevilla is quite circuitous and thus it's only a bit longer with a car and many will probably prefer driving. The other two routes will be more successful as driving to Madrid takes longer than most people are willing to do and Malaga will be almost within a commuting distance and probably with a frequent Avant service plus very attractive for all the tourists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
LAV Madrid-Barcelona-Vilaseca (Tarragona)-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.
I know it's been an endless discussion, but if we look at Barcelona-Valencia route as a whole will it all be third rail? What kind of service one could expect there in the future- AVE or Alvia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Node of Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of the works before summer of 2018.
Any idea how much time this would save for those going to Burgos and those going further to Bilbao?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Astigarraga (San Sebastián) - French border: 20.5 km with mixed gauge (at 8 M x ​​km of double track) so that, in 2019, some Euroduplex Océane can be circulated to Paris.
How does that help before Basque Y is finished?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de la Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019. 51.8 km of new standard double track and change gauge to 41.2 km.
This is taking a lot longer than I expected. I was under impression this route was almost finished already last year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Zamora-Pedralba: in service at the end of 2018 with station in Otero de Sanabria, Pedralba-Ourense in phase of tests at the end of 2019 with a gauge changer in Taboadela: for Alvias in the 1st phase and for Lugo and Ferrol in the 2nd and with mixed gauge Taboadela-Ourense.
I guess no one is predicting yet when a full AVE service is going to reach A Coruna... Of course better this than nothing. The amount of money spent on this route has been enormous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Y Basque: according to the Basque minister: "being tremendously optimistic, the works could conclude in 2022, although I think it will be from 2023."
This should have been a much higher priority in the past...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Pajares variant: the West tunnel in service at the beginning of 2019 unless the gauge has to be changed, in which case it would be 2021 according to the Asturian adviser
This has been a true problem child of the entire Spanish HSR program. There was a tunnel in Southern Sweden which took 25 years to make with all the delays, hope you don't approach that record. But in any case what exactly is the latest plan on the route from Leon to the tunnel and then beyond? Which gauge?
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:04 PM   #3854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I'm not at all sure they could be trusted, but if yes then it's not so bad...
Well, the first thing the minister said is that he has to rebuild the credibility of the ads. True, but I do not give you too much credibility, just serve to know your preferences.

Quote:
Is it right that after this is in service there will be no more overlap between Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Valencia/Alicante routes?
Absolutely. And I explain it because it is complex.
The routes from Chamartín and from Atocha to Torrejón are completely separated (the first passes below Atocha), but Chamartín is less central and is not prepared to admit many more destinations. In principle, it will be useful for trains between the North (Gijón, Santander ...) to reach the South and the East without making two changes of gauge in Madrid; These trains will only stop at Chamartín. Later, with the start of Murcia and Granada HSR, some trains to the South and East will leave from Chamartín, but we do not know which ones. Meanwhile, trains to Valencia/Alicante will follow the current route (Atocha-Sevilla HSR).

Quote:
I know it's been an endless discussion, but if we look at Barcelona-Valencia route as a whole will it all be third rail? What kind of service one could expect there in the future- AVE or Alvia?
Alvia S-130: standard gauge Barcelona-Camp de Tarragona, gauge changer and Iberian gauge to Valencia (Vandellós-Castellón it has not been done, so it has not been placed in Tarragona-Vandellós).

Quote:
Any idea how much time this would save for those going to Burgos and those going further to Bilbao?
Madrid-Burgos will pass from 2 h 20 m to 1 h 41 m (181 km / h), Madrid-Bilbao from 5 h 4 m to 4 h 25 m.

Quote:
How does that help before Basque Y is finished?
In nothing. I think it is only to circulate an HST (French, but HST) and it seems that the Basque Y is finished. When it is finished there will be another route between San Sebastián and the border. With almost 5 hours of travel to Paris I do not think there are many passengers.

Quote:
This is taking a lot longer than I expected. I was under impression this route was almost finished already last year...
Valencia-Xátiva was electrified last year, but as long as there is no continuity until La Encina ...

Quote:
I guess no one is predicting yet when a full AVE service is going to reach A Coruna... Of course better this than nothing. The amount of money spent on this route has been enormous.
When arriving in Ourense (2020) Alvia trains (then may be S-130 and S-120) will circulate entirely by HSR, but for AVE trains to need to change the gauge of Ourense-Santiago and Vigo-Coruña. It will take a lot.

Quote:
This should (Y Basque) have been a much higher priority in the past.
The terrorist band ETA (and a part of the Basque society) were always against.

Quote:
This has been a true problem child of the entire Spanish HSR program. There was a tunnel in Southern Sweden which took 25 years to make with all the delays, hope you don't approach that record. But in any case what exactly is the latest plan on the route from Leon to the tunnel and then beyond? Which gauge?
Until a month ago the forecast was to open a single tunnel in Iberian gauge in early 2019 (half of the rail is already installed) and thus would serve for freight trains (very important in Asturias) and for the Alvia, which would change gauge in León.
Now there is an Asturian party (To complicate it even more, its president was the impeller of the route of the tunnel) with a single deputy who will only support the government's budgets if they put standard gauge. Why? Because they do not know anything, nor have they talked to a technician in their life . It would suppose to put mixed gauge León-La Robla (two or three years) and a new gauge changer in Pola de Lena (to the North of the tunnel, and there is almost no space) because it is not viable to put mixed gauge until Gijón by the traffic and because they want that there is new HSR very expensive). In the end, the same Alvia trains would circulate (what else would change in one place than in another if the route would be the same?) Without gaining any time, they will not be able to move the goods (they say yes ), European aids will be lost and start-up will be delayed. They could put the second tunnel in standard more or less for those dates (2021), but no. And the worst thing is that it seems that the government is listening to them.
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:26 PM   #3855
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One more thing - what about the second tunnel? Have they given up on saving that one?
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Old April 23rd, 2017, 08:34 PM   #3856
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At the moment they are satisfied with setting up the West tunnel; at the moment it is enough. The second tunnel serves as an emergency exit.
Another problem, less known, has been (and we will see ...) the stability of the slope of Campomanes (North of the tunnel); another huge problem.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 02:53 AM   #3857
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Why is it bad for the minister to only support standard gauge? I think it is where whole Spain is evolving to, no?
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Old April 24th, 2017, 12:51 PM   #3858
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Yes, at least the lines for passengers.
In this case the problem is that there is no standard gauge either north or south of the variant.

In all of them (except those with mixed gauge, of course), the new lines that are isolated from standard lines are installed in a multi-purpose sleepers: first the rail is placed in Iberian gauge (for example: in Galicia or shortly in Extremadura) and when there is continuity, are changed to standard gauge. Points are also prepared, although it is not as simple as many want to believe.

A video of a gauge change in Albacete_Almansa:

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Old April 24th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #3859
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How long is the total conversion expected to take?

Will the freight lines join as well to some extent? I can imagine that it would be a huge boon to the international trading market to do so.
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Old April 24th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #3860
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Total, the entire network? There is no plan for that.

I have always argued that the standard gauge is much more important for the transport of goods than for the passenger, the latter have easier to transfer. In addition to the fact that long distances benefit goods transport, and harm passengers to benefit the airplane.

Nowadays there is continuity in standard (or mixed gauge) from the tunnel of El Perthús (near Le Soler, Perpignan) to the port of Barcelona taking advantage of, in part, the HSR. But since 2010 the factory of Seat in Martorell is to 10 km of that line and have not put mixed gauge because the line is Cercanías and have to expand a tunnel.

There are plans (not works) to the port of Tarragona and from there to Castellón, where the mixed gauge reaches Valencia; a little further away is the Ford factory. In those plans is to put aside tracks of 750 meters.

Apart from that there are a multitude of HSRs with 400 meter aside tracks and large ramps, so they do not seem compatible with HST at 300 km/h.

Asturias (Pajares) is far from all that.
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