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Old November 26th, 2011, 03:46 AM   #401
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Let me elaborate more: the current service level of AVE warrants a higher cost. However, with an open access, low-cost operators using trains with 2nd class only, open seat on 2+3 seat-per-row arrangement etc. have potential to offer, also, lower cost services.

Quote:
After spending such amount of money in HSL, transport by bus/car should be almost inexistent in most routes.
Spain did have a quite develope bus transport system because its railways were very slow compared to France, Italy, Germany... So buses will be there making competition to high-speed trains, but if low-cost train operators existed, they'd probably get a hit.

As for car, I don't think many people drive all the way from Madrid to Barcelona or Sevilla, and those who do are unlikely to change modes of transportation.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks.

Nowhere I spoke of selling the tracks and stations, sorry if you understood that.
I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem. Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure, the state just take over operations and runs the infrastructure reconciling profits with social benefits.
The competition and free-market mambo-jumbo, at least when applied to natural monopolies such as rail operations, universal postal service or water services, will just lead to inefficiency and higher social costs at consumers' expense.

Last edited by Federicoft; November 26th, 2011 at 12:11 PM.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 01:46 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem.
The problem is that nowadays in the opinion of the customers Spain's so far away of having lower-than-average fares. Even when "rail tollls" aren't so expensive. And after 20 years of high speed Renfe has demostrated that they have not any intention to change it.

The fares are really closer of that of the national air companies before the liberalization of the air market. They are expensive, they aren't flexible.

The other problem in here is that when operations will be in a free market we are supossed to have public and private competitors in the same line. Ones will think that this is a problem to the private companies, I think the problem is for the public operator that doesn't know how to please the customers and how to manage a free market.

We could think that the solution for Renfe is to do low cost services, but it's so clear that this is not their game. Adding that they have eliminated all the other services (it has it explanation) in high speed corridor, Renfe will suffer, but customers will be deligthed.

I'd prefer a hyper-efficient Renfe, but is not the real one. The causes of that could be a great discuss, I think it comes from the rail situation in Spain from after the civil war, that has been always "special".

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Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure
I don't see the difference with the air market. Where is the inefficiency? In the liberalization process the've copied all the operation way from air traffic. They exist slots, to run a train you only have to resquet it and pay the taxes, and traffic controlers only see trains in their screens, don't mind what company they are. There is no difference to run a public train or a private train in that infrastructure.

If you're talking about passengers flow efficiency, Renfe has demonstrated he's not enought.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 08:17 PM   #404
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It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.
Are you on drugs or what?

Figueras-Paris on TGV, tickets from 54€. That´s more than 800km.
Valencia-Madrid, usual price: 80€ for a distance of just a little over 300km.
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Old November 26th, 2011, 08:19 PM   #405
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well, it's a government-built railway line and a government-owned public company running the services, so people has already paid and continues to pay via taxes, it's only fair that fares are low.
Fares aren´t effing low, they´re just as expensive as in Germany, if not more!!!!!
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Old November 27th, 2011, 01:59 AM   #406
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The first ever electric train to enter La Coruña station, an Avant, class S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña.

Here it is:



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Last edited by 437.001; November 27th, 2011 at 02:13 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2011, 05:52 PM   #407
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It is a fantastic news because it is the opening of the final strech of high speed to La Coruña.

It is opened with Spanish gauge instead of international gauge because there is no continous line later and they avoid to change the gauge.

But it is ready to be changed quickly to international gauge when the high speed line arrive to Orense.

Since december, timetables are calculated with a saving time on those journeys.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #408
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In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe

http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave
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Old December 4th, 2011, 07:13 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patryk View Post
In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe

http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave


The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.

Best trains... any passenger could decide.
They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.

BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #410
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Amazing photo by REGFA. S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña.

Ponte Ulla bridge

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Originally Posted by REGFA View Post
La linea entre Santiago y Ourense tiene bastantes circulaciones de lunes a viernes con la formación y pruebas de los 121.

Viaducto de Guntian.

image hosted on flickr

Ponte Ulla por ***REGFA***, en Flickr
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Old December 4th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #411
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Quote:
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The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.
Alserrod, he is speaking about High Speed Lines network. Total rail network is far from being among the longest
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Old December 5th, 2011, 12:58 AM   #412
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Mistake from my side... I wanted to say about high speed railway network.

The normal network is not so great... and it is a pity but the trains are prepared for trips point to point... not to connect with another one.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #413
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Old December 5th, 2011, 10:26 AM   #414
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In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.



Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
Blue - AVE
Red - AVANT
Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris

AVE - AVE
AL - Alvia
Ala - Alaris
E - Euromed

How to decipher the inscriptions:
for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
also
near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.

Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain

The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.

PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.
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Last edited by B1ritney; December 5th, 2011 at 10:32 AM.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #415
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Barcelona-Sevilla/Málaga it's 102 or 112, depending of the timetable. You could know them in the sales system because S112 has two classes, instead of S102 who has three.

Santander, Gijón, Bilbao and Irún trains are going to be S120 in the future.

Ourense-A Coruña will have an Avant S121 service.

Madrid-Granada/Algeciras have Altaria services wich run partially trougth the HSL at 200 km/h between Madrid and Antequera-Santa Ana. Madrid-Vigo/A Coruña too beetween Madrid and Medina del Campo, but they aren't called Altaria, I think.

Trenhotel night trains Barcelona-Vigo/A Coruña/Gijón use partially the HSL, also at 200 km/h, between Barcelona and Zaragoza.

There are TGV's who enter Spain for few kilometers, at Irún (non HSL) and at Figueres-Vilafant (HSL).

Last edited by Think; December 5th, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2011, 06:47 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B1ritney View Post
In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.



Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
Blue - AVE
Red - AVANT
Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris

AVE - AVE
AL - Alvia
Ala - Alaris
E - Euromed

How to decipher the inscriptions:
for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
also
near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.

Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain

The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.

PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.


good map and I give you further information that could help:

AVE and Avant goes always by High speed lines. Avant is designed for regional services as well as AVE is for long distance ones. The difference you will find is on trains, facilities and specially on prices.

Alvia takes partially high speed line and runs later by normal railway (different gauge).

You should consider also Orense-Santiago-La Coruña as HSL as far as it is done. It is opened with Spanish gauge until they arrive the rest of the HSL lines (avoiding two gauge changing), but times are faster.

There is also Avant there.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 04:52 PM   #417
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Rail Technology Center in Spain
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Old December 7th, 2011, 11:27 PM   #418
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Quote:
The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.

Best trains... any passenger could decide.
They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.

BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.
Yes, maybe not cheap but everywhere in europe rail transport is expensive ...and in Spain is very high quality level of services independently whether it is high-speed or Cercanías ... i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona
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Old December 8th, 2011, 03:17 PM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patryk View Post
i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona
where did you pick that up..?
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Old December 8th, 2011, 03:31 PM   #420
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thanks for the video Palmesano
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