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Old December 8th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patryk View Post
after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona
No way.
There is no way that can be done in the near future, since there is a HSL gap between Perpignan and Nimes, that will make TGVs running from Barcelona to Paris from next year to have a travel time of around 6h/6h30.
An Eurostar would take too long to travel from London to Barcelona from 2012, some 7 hours.

Only when the HSL from Perpignan to Nimes will be open (allowing TGVs from Paris to Barcelona to shorten its travel time to 4h30) there will be a real possibility to seeing a London to Barcelona High Speed Train.

But London to Madrid via Barcelona, although technically feasible, would take too long even in that case.

The only possibility to have a London to Madrid HST is the construction of the HSL on the Atlantic side, via Bordeaux and the Basque Country.
And still I don´t find it very likely.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 01:07 AM   #422
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Consider the 7 hours train travel a night service...
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Old December 9th, 2011, 01:17 AM   #423
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The objective of such train clearly wouldn't be the end points (someone going from London to Madrid) but the middle ones, e.g. someone going from London to let's say Lille, and someone going from Madrid to Narbonne, someone going from Barcelona to Lyon etc. there's really no chance someone would use a night train from London to Madrid when there's the possibility of jumping on a cheap flight between these two cities. However, I think the demand for Madrid-Narbonne or further services (to Lyon the service is as well too long as that city too has a nice airport) must be close to zero, so I don't think it makes sense to introduce such a long service for a train, if there is a passanger wanting to do that trip he or she could very well change in Barcelona for example.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #424
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thanks for the video Palmesano
your welcome
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Old December 9th, 2011, 01:17 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
The objective of such train clearly wouldn't be the end points (someone going from London to Madrid) but the middle ones, e.g. someone going from London to let's say Lille, and someone going from Madrid to Narbonne, someone going from Barcelona to Lyon etc. there's really no chance someone would use a night train from London to Madrid when there's the possibility of jumping on a cheap flight between these two cities. However, I think the demand for Madrid-Narbonne or further services (to Lyon the service is as well too long as that city too has a nice airport) must be close to zero, so I don't think it makes sense to introduce such a long service for a train, if there is a passanger wanting to do that trip he or she could very well change in Barcelona for example.
This could be possible in any European line except in Eurostar.

The Eurotunnel has special security requeriments that permets only Eurostar trains to get into. They exist only a few trains of this series. The most efficient explotation is to use them only in point-to-point services with a high demand.

It doesn't make sense to build an expensive special Eurotunnel series to have it running Madrid-Narbonne halfday instead of running several times trought the Eurotunnel every day.

TGVs, AVEs, ICEs... can't get into the Eurotunnel. New Siemens Eurostar trains are completly different from ICE or AVE's ones.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 01:55 PM   #426
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The French, Spanish, Belgian high-speed lines, and also HSL-1 (UK) are all closed at night for maintenance, to avoid disruptions on scheduled services, particularly over weekends (as it is common with non-HS railways).

High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less). It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 04:11 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The French, Spanish, Belgian high-speed lines, and also HSL-1 (UK) are all closed at night for maintenance, to avoid disruptions on scheduled services, particularly over weekends (as it is common with non-HS railways).
AFAIK HS-1 is not closed at night. It is even planned to run freight on the line at night. Fitting a few night trains would not be a big challenge.
in France they do close tracks at night (and during the day), and Belgium has indeed picked up this bad habit too. However it's not done in Germany or Switzerland for example. Common with non HS railways is that they are available 24*7

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High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less).
In fact, high speed trains are not that heavy. They certainly aren't "very heavy". They are certainly a lot lighter than freight trains.

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It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.
The Chinese seem to disagree with you here...

Anyway, you don't need individual toilets. A Talgo "Trenotel" type of train is not heavier than a HST, can go 220 kph, and could even go faster. That's what you would use.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 04:14 PM   #428
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TGVs, AVEs, ICEs... can't get into the Eurotunnel. New Siemens Eurostar trains are completly different from ICE or AVE's ones.
The new Siemens Eurostar trains are basically 16 car versions of the Velaro (which already runs in Spain...). It is intended that the DB Velaro's will be permitted in the Channel tunnel too. And I'd imagine that Alstom would be interested in getting its AGV accepted for Cross Channel services too.
Things are definitely changing here.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #429
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In fact, high speed trains are not that heavy. They certainly aren't "very heavy". They are certainly a lot lighter than freight trains.
You didn't understand my argument. The cost of moving a train at a given speed is highly dependent on its weight.

The weight of passengers and their luggage is usually less than 10% of the overall train weight with usual load factors on a high-speed train. Using sleepers greatly reduces the capacity of train, and thus increases the weight/passenger ratio. As less passengers don't put much of a dent in the overall train weight, it makes the costs of hypothetical "high speed sleeper trains" astronomical.

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The Chinese seem to disagree with you here...
Semi-slave labor (wage-wise) + opaque accountancy standards.

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Anyway, you don't need individual toilets.
A night train needs showers, and they must be fit individually to each sleeper compartment.

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A Talgo "Trenotel" type of train is not heavier than a HST, can go 220 kph, and could even go faster. That's what you would use.
It is not heavier, but its capacity is much lower.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The new Siemens Eurostar trains are basically 16 car versions of the Velaro (which already runs in Spain...). It is intended that the DB Velaro's will be permitted in the Channel tunnel too. And I'd imagine that Alstom would be interested in getting its AGV accepted for Cross Channel services too.
Things are definitely changing here.
No. This Velaro and AGV versions for the Eurostar are very very different from the standard version.

You could search what are the requeriments to cross the Eurotunnel and see why TGVs have never arrive London while the've arrived a lot of foreing destinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist
High-speed train consists are very heavy (a TGV will weigh, empty of passengers, around 750kg/seat (seat, not passenger), don't think Renfe trains weigh much less). It would be anti-economical to fit them with even-more-heavy sleeper cars, individual toilets, greatly reducing capacity/train. Unless fares skyrocketed, but then passengers would avoid the service.
Spain has high speed night trains capable to run at 250 km/h. They have never passed 200 km/h in commercial services but they could. They were a fail, but the problem is supposed to be the lack of tourist places, 'cause the only have first class beds.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 05:51 PM   #431
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The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-ne...ours-by-train/
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Old December 9th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #432
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Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.
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Old December 9th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
Spain has high speed night trains capable to run at 250 km/h. They have never passed 200 km/h in commercial services but they could. They were a fail, but the problem is supposed to be the lack of tourist places, 'cause the only have first class beds.
The issue is not designing a train capable or speeding 250km/h+. That is trivial.

You recognized the problem on your sentence: lack of economic feasibility. If fares are too high, there will be not enough passenger. If they are low enough to attract ridership, there will not be enough income to cover the train direct operational costs. So it is an unfeasible system financially, and I don't think night trains are nowhere any priority for subsidization (it is a luxury, a niche market for travel, not a more basic need like hauling people from their homes to their workplaces in other cities).
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Old December 9th, 2011, 06:02 PM   #434
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Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.
Ah I see, there is still some work to be done on the French side. Thanks for that. It still looks very exciting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Perpignan-Figueres

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The Madrid–Barcelona high-speed rail line is being extended from Barcelona to Figueres. Services are expected to run from Perpignan to Girona starting in 2012[11][14] and Paris to Barcelona.[12] Trains will be able to travel at high speed from Madrid to Perpignan, and services from Lyon to Barcelona in under four hours[15] are planned, probably in 2014,[8] using the classic line in France between Perpignan and Nîmes. A new company jointly owned by RENFE and SNCF is to be formed to run services between Paris and Madrid. Ten new trains are to be purchased at a cost of €300 million.[16]
In May 2010 it was announced that tendering had started for the Nîmes–Montpellier bypass route. This will be the first stage in the link between the Spanish high-speed network and LGV Méditerranée. The line will carry a mix of freight and high-speed trains. It is expected that the line will open in 2016
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Old December 9th, 2011, 11:30 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

A night train needs showers, and they must be fit individually to each sleeper compartment.



It is not heavier, but its capacity is much lower.
Look at the CityNightLine of Germans. Which operates to Netherlands, too.

They get a car to have 60 berths - 10 6 berth compartments (lower, middle and upper berths). Plus 2 toilets and 3 separate washrooms - but no showers - to be shared by all 60 passengers.

Yes, CityNightLine also has luxury cars which have fewer berths per compartments, but that CityNightLine also has seat cars on overnight trains - which surprisingly have fewer than 70 seats.

Meaning that sleepers do NOT have much lower capacity than seat trains.
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Old December 10th, 2011, 12:40 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-ne...ours-by-train/
A pipe dream. Once the whole line is HSR the distance between Madrid and Paris will be about 1600 km. At 5 hour and 30 min that means the trains will have to run at 320-330 km/h nonstop, achieving an average comercial speed of 290 km/h.

Today Paris-Marseille has an average comercial speed of 250 km/h and Madrid-Barcelona around 240 km/h for the nonstop trains. This means both these streches will have to increase their average comercial speed significantly.

More reasonable would be a travel time of 6 hours and 30 minutes for the direct trains between Madrid and Paris and this only once the whole line is HSR (2020-2025 at the earliest). One also have to remember that both Barcelona and Girona lack a by-pass, this alone penalize the travel time some 15-20 minutes.

With a travel time of 6 hours and 30 minutes only absolute train enthusiasts will use this service, it will basically not be profitable at all unless air travel become impossible due to oil shortage or some volcanic ash block the airspace.

This means that the trains will have to make intermediate stops along the route, for every stop you have to add 10-15 minutes extra traveltime and if your name is RENFE then you have to add 30 minutes for every stop just so you can be sure not to break the timetable

Last edited by gincan; December 10th, 2011 at 02:45 AM.
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Old December 10th, 2011, 02:23 AM   #437
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Opening ceremony today: Ourense-Santiago-Coruña axis of the North-Northwest HSL (LAV Galicia).

http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc..._galicia.shtml


LAV GALICIA/EJE OURENSE SANTIAGO (Junio 2011) - Adif
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Old December 10th, 2011, 03:18 AM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
The following article states that the Paris-Madrid will be 5 and a half hours once the lines are up in service. This will be in Autumn 2012 as the high speed line from Barcelona to Figueras will be completed then.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-ne...ours-by-train/
NO.
That´s Paris to Barcelona.
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Old December 10th, 2011, 03:21 AM   #439
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Impossible, because there will be still no completed Pepingran-Marseille HSL.
No, definitely not from "Pepingran" to Marseille.
Perpignan to Nimes, you must mean.
Nimes to Marseille and Nimes to Paris HLSs are already operating.
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Old December 10th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #440
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No. This Velaro and AGV versions for the Eurostar are very very different from the standard version.

You could search what are the requeriments to cross the Eurotunnel and see why TGVs have never arrive London while the've arrived a lot of foreing destinations.
K is correct. The restrictions on units using the channel tunnel has recently been changed to allow other types of units. The reason TGVs have never provided services to London is historical issue now, and irrelevant to changes in the near future.

The reason why the restrictions have been altered is because

a) It prevents competition
b) The restrictions caused more safety issues than they solved.

I would post links but I will refer you to your own advice - you could do a search.
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