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Old May 30th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #501
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.
Do the narrow gauge passenger lines make the existing wide gauge lines less full of passenger traffic?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #502
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Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.
But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?
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Old May 30th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.

Goods can... but have to change wheels on freight wagons so there is not too much international freight railway traffic.

Furthermore... Maximum length at Spain is about 450 m and at France I think it is 700 m.

I listen about exporting wagons... as well as you pay per train you try to maximize. So you send two trains to the border, get about 700m train to France and leave 200m there. Two trains more... and leave 200m (now 400m) there waiting for the next one...
Spanish lines are being prepared for longer trains but only some lines and it is not easy


As an example, in my region, the main entreprise makes cars. Depending of the destination they send by ship since San Sebastian (Atlantic), since Tarragona (Mediterranean) or all by rail via Port Bou.

For car importation there are several points for logistic distribution railway-truck for Spain and Portugal (and that means international trains arrive there).

They are almost shared by a big number of companies.

Near my city you have this point
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=zuera&...ag%C3%B3n&z=16


But in general, only cars, some civil works companies and very big goods are carried by train.
Anyway... there is no problem to change the wheels but for the logistic point of view, it is not practical, so used when the price difference is great.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.
When the lorry business start going bust on large scale, then there is little choice but shifting to rail freight. The gauge change will be enforced on the Spanish government by the industry. It will be very simple, either Spain provide a decent freight transport network or the industry will move out of Spain.

One thing is very clear though, the Spanish lorry industry is a bubble that will burst very hard when the economy contract in combination with increased transport costs. We saw a small forerunnet to what is coming during the summer 2008 when Spanish truckers tried to bring the country to a halt. it will be ten times worse this time around.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 09:36 PM   #506
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But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?
Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.
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Old May 30th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.


I think percentage is.... even smaller!! but inside Spain the percentage is not greater than exportation. This is... there is no culture about railway freight. The entreprise that has it, doesn't matter to have a different gauge to export. They will prefer the same one, of course... but it is an algorithm about travel time, price, etc... and different gauge is only one thing more to take in consideration
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Old May 30th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #508
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If we are talking specifically about high speed lines then are these really suited for freight traffic? In most countries freight is not even allowed on such lines due to increased wear and drastically decreased capacity for passenger trains...

P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 12:15 AM   #509
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To make a Frankfurt-Madrid train you need at least two locomotives and either two sets of wagons (if goods are transshipped) or special wagons that can change boogies or axles. That's expensive, and few companies want to do that, so for these routes railway is attractive only for some specific goods like cars, raw materials (coal, grain, ...), maybe some container traffic but not too much else.

Spain needs broad gauge lines more than new HSLs, in my opinion, and this could be done converting the existing and often nearly empty broad gauge railways.

@Sunfuns: Spanish HSL are not suited for freight, except some stretches like Barcelona-Figueras-Perpignan and the Variante de Pajares. Although I doubt there will be capacity issues on lines like Olmedo-Ourense (Madrid-Galicia) or Palencia-León.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:41 AM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.
And about half of all intra EU freight goes by ship...
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Old May 31st, 2012, 09:13 AM   #511
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Yeah... but not all origin/destinations are besides a harbour
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Old June 20th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #512
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La Sagrera TAV (Barcelona)

Cycling through my neighbourhood the other day I decided to cross the Gran Via and check out the status of the Sagrera TAV High-speed railway station, currently under construction in Barcelona's Sant Marti District. Below some pictures I took during my cycle route:

Coming up from Bac de Roda to the Pont de Treball, looking to the right:


Standing on the bridge looking down in the direction of the Besòs river (maybe someone knows what the hole is for)


Standing in the middle of the bridge, still looking towards the north:


On the side of La Meridiana the view of the tunnel taking the UIC lines from La Sagrera to Sants via Mallorca (There is a hole of some 6 meters below the concrete slab I think):


On the other side of the bridge, the UIC-tunnel going underneath Carrer de Mallorca (I think they moved the building slightly to enable the tunnel entering Mallorca)


The usual information provided by the state:


Cycling all the way around the building site and on the bridge, looking towards the center, that was recently built to replace one they tore down a couple of meters further towards the south:


One without rodalies train:


And some tunnel elements I found when looking for the extension of Metro Line 4 from La Pau via new station Santander to La Sagrera TAV (looks kind of left to rot):


&



Hope you enjoyed it.
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Old June 20th, 2012, 08:14 PM   #513
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To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 02:48 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...
Most optimistic forecast is 2016 but really 2020 and beyond is more realistic considering the current economic situation. This is after all a 2 billion euro project that most likely will end up more expensive due to delays. Sants which is a much smaller train station took 12 years to finish (1969-1981) without the hotel. This station is a lot larger and include workshops and service areas for trains, work began in 2008 and I would not be surprised if this project took 15-20 years to finish.

This PDF gives you an idea of the scope o this project

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/uplo...media/1062.pdf

Last edited by gincan; June 22nd, 2012 at 03:10 PM.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 06:24 AM   #515
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Hi.

New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know.

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #516
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And thanks to the Formula 1 race at Valencia, trains arrive full two weekends ago!!

Change trains at Cordoba are for Malaga with a 10 minutes delay.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Hi.

New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know.

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.
Can't see the demand rising too much, but good to see the new service using (for the most part) existing lines.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #518
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It is only one train per day that connects Valencia and Seville (shuttle to Malaga) directly in less than four hours.
It is possible to have a lot of trains with a stop at Madrid. In this way it would take longer and a little more expensive.

Let's hope the service run correctly and a second train will be required.

Since three years ago there are two Barcelona-Sevilla and two Barcelona-Malaga so Barcelona, Tarragona, Lerida and Zaragoza have four direct connections to Cordoba.

Trains run full international gauge and 300 km/h speed.

Avoiding Madrid stop they save time because entering the city (slow speed), inverse of driving and time of stop... and as well as there are enough passengers to have trains only to Madrid and trains to the other corner without entering Madrid they offer these services which pass very near Madrid station but do not stop there
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Old July 21st, 2012, 01:02 PM   #519
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Someone has had a cunning plan... in order to save money on new AVE lines, there is a proposal to modify the existing track with a third rail, so the fast trains can run on existing lines - at speeds up to 250 km/hour it's claimed.
(article in Spanish)
http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-...a-al-AVE-.html
I think this is a great idea (so long as routes are kept safe). For instance the Madrid to Zamora stretch should be operational by early next year. If the AVE can then carry onto Galicia using this 3rd rail method, then the route will have major time savings.
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Old July 21st, 2012, 06:12 PM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
Someone has had a cunning plan... in order to save money on new AVE lines, there is a proposal to modify the existing track with a third rail, so the fast trains can run on existing lines - at speeds up to 250 km/hour it's claimed.
(article in Spanish)
http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-...a-al-AVE-.html
I think this is a great idea (so long as routes are kept safe). For instance the Madrid to Zamora stretch should be operational by early next year. If the AVE can then carry onto Galicia using this 3rd rail method, then the route will have major time savings.
The current lines can not support faster speeds than they already do, installing a third rail only mean that the AVE trains can run there but not faster.

The only way to run at 250km/h would be to construct new trackbed designed for that speed.
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