daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 18th, 2012, 03:09 PM   #581
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Last spring in the Motorways subforum a new thread was created for roads at Ukraine and Poland because the Football Eurocup.

Next winter it will be played the 2013 Handball World cup in Spain

There will be six host cities and movement between them will be easy by train.

If moderators consider the option, a thread about this sport event can be created, and include there not only how to move city to city but also underground, commuter, tramway inside every city for inner mobility.

The thread could be used one and a half year later for the 2014 Basketball world cup (only partially... for basketball one of host cities will be Las Palmas de Gran Canaria...)
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 18th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #582
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

I write here. Should it be interesting, it can be moved to a different thread

2013 Handball World Championship - Spain

The championship will have four groups with six countries everyone. 16 teams will pass to the second phase and will be eliminatory to arrive semifinal and final.

8 teams not classified (possitions 17 to 24) will play a second competition ("President cup" such it is called in handball)

Venues cities for first phase will be Sevilla, Madrid, Zaragoza and Granollers-Barcelona. In this last case, four out of five matches will be played at Granollers and last one at Barcelona.

Teams classified will play two matches more (1/8 and 1/4) at Barcelona or Zaragoza.
Semifinal and Final at Barcelona


Teams by city:

- Sevilla: Chile, Denmark, Iceland, Macedonia, Qatar and Russia
- Granollers: Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, Montenegro and Tunisia
- Zaragoza: Saudi Arabia, Belarus, South Korea, Slovenia, Poland and Serbia
- Madrid: Algeria, Australia, Croatia, Egypt, Spain and Hungary

All five group matches will be played in the same city so no need to transport between cities there.

After first phase, teams can go to Barcelona or Zaragoza depending if they are clasified 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th in their group (for any group it is possible to see the exact city every country will go depending on the group they are).



If a supporter is at Sevilla, he will need to move to Barcelona or Zaragoza. There are two daily high speed trains. Destination Barcelona and Zaragoza is one of those stops.

For instance, Sevilla-Zaragoza is 860 km by road and only 3h30min by train!!!!

General fare is 115 EUR but buying in advance you can save money.

Sevilla-Barcelona is 5h20min and they are the same trains (currently they depart at 9:00 and 16:00 from Sevilla)

It is possible to make a Sevilla-Madrid and Madrid-Zaragoza/Barcelona but will take a bit longer and expensive.


If a supporter is at Madrid and needs to go to Zaragoza or Barcelona there are, at least, one train per hour.

Madrid-Zaragoza, since 1h15min and 61 EUR in general fare

Madrid-Barcelona, since 2h30min and since 119 EUR in general fare


From Granollers to Barcelona (needed for last match in first phase) you need to take a commuter train. It takes about 30 minutes until Barcelona centre and runs about every 10 minutes in normal hours (in peak hours can be 6 minutes)
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 03:00 PM   #583
CityDreamer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 27
Likes (Received): 2

A major viaduct (Aramaio) has been built in the Basque country

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/ave-vito...to-de-aramaio/

It's looking good for the Basque Y project, which should be complete by 2017
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Y
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
CityDreamer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:05 PM   #584
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Looks cool! Is there a very difficult geography? This piece seems to take longer and cost more than elsewhere in Spain...

By the way I remember reading last year that there would be some non-stop trains between Madrid and Barcelona taking 2h 30 min. I've noticed that now all of them stop at least in Zaragoza and thus take 15 min longer. Any reason for that?
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:55 PM   #585
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
A major viaduct (Aramaio) has been built in the Basque country

http://ave-renfe.edreams.es/ave-vito...to-de-aramaio/

It's looking good for the Basque Y project, which should be complete by 2017
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Y


should you (or any else) want any information about this project, just ask and will transfer to specific threads about this topic in the Spanish forum. I know something about some projects but nothing about it.

But there are some forumers who do not use to enter in international threads but know too much about these projects... and will be happy to report about
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 07:04 PM   #586
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Looks cool! Is there a very difficult geography? This piece seems to take longer and cost more than elsewhere in Spain...
Pajares tunnel under construction (24,6 km length) are the biggest right now.
In any case, there are a lot of important projects. Puertollano-Cordoba (first high speed line) was not easy, neither Cuenca-Teruel.
North of Calatayud there is a 5 km tunnel if I am not wrong
And tunnel to approach Segovia is one of the longest world wide (a little smaller than Eurotunnel)


Quote:
By the way I remember reading last year that there would be some non-stop trains between Madrid and Barcelona taking 2h 30 min. I've noticed that now all of them stop at least in Zaragoza and thus take 15 min longer. Any reason for that?
More or less:

- Direct trains Madrid-Barcelona mainly on mornings, one on afternoon and one on evenings. Non-stop. No service on weekends, summer, Christmas, etc...

- Zaragoza is the station with more passengers in the line (apart of Madrid and Barcelona). The problem is that there is a direct line on the south of Zaragoza and trains go faster there. For entering Zaragoza they have to reduce speed for several kilometres, making a stop and later they have the only one railway line between Madrid and Barcelona.
It doesn't take 15 minutes, just about 10 minutes, but Renfe prefers to put 15 minutes and making trains stopping for a while. Should they are on delay, they will recover there

Apart of the five daily trains Madrid-Barcelona you have:

* ALL trains with stop at Zaragoza. One train every hour (Madrid departure XX:30, Barcelona departure XX:00)
* HALF trains with stop at Lleida and Camp de Tarragona. One train every two hours
* QUARTER trains with stop at Guadalajara or Calatayud. One train every four hours

This is:
- Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona
- Madrid-Calatayud-Zaragoza-Lleida-C. Tarragona-Barcelona
- Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona
- Madrid-Guadalajara-Zaragoza-Lleida-C. Tarragona-Barcelona
and so on, one every hour
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 08:04 PM   #587
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Thanks a lot for the quick answers! It does makes sense to stop in a rather large city in between and those 15 min alone probably wouldn't convince anyone to fly instead.

Living in Zaragoza you've probably taken these trains to Madrid or Barcelona. Do they tend to be full or close to it? There was a discussion some time ago in these threads and the common opinion was that Renfe is good at building the lines, but not so good at selling tickets for the trains. I wonder whether there would be enough business for a competing operator once it's finally allowed. Kind of like NTV is trying now in Italy (successful or not remains to be seen).
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 09:43 PM   #588
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
And tunnel to approach Segovia is one of the longest world wide (a little smaller than Eurotunnel)
Guadarrama 28 km
Eurotunnel 50 km

Around the double...anyway, the Chinese have built and are building so much new rail tunnels that's nearly impossible to list them all (I'm aware of one of 38 km, one of 33 km, and many, many, many between 10 and 30 km).

(I think even the Gotthard base tunnel record will last too long - maybe a couple of decades only)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

fŘr GŘter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 09:50 PM   #589
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

10-20 km railway tunnels are very common both in Europe and East Asia.

Right now the top 3 are Seikan (53 km), Channel (50 km) and Lotschberg (35 km). Are there any other (besides Gotthard) 50 km+ tunnels in advanced planning stages or under construction already?
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 09:57 PM   #590
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Guadarrama 28 km
Eurotunnel 50 km

CERTAIN!
(baaash!!!!)


I had the mistake because I knew the sum of all tunnels together in the strech Madrid-Segovia and got confused. There are some other ones "important" but the highest is 28 km long.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 10:04 PM   #591
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

It's an off-topic in this thread, but speaking about tunnels - Italians would only need to somehow "bury" the remaining 4.7 km of track to come up with a 78 km tunnel between Bologna and Florence.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 10:33 PM   #592
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Thanks a lot for the quick answers! It does makes sense to stop in a rather large city in between and those 15 min alone probably wouldn't convince anyone to fly instead.
Bfff...... they are more used than direct ones because they are rather cheaper and only 15 minutes of difference.

Apart of it, high speed trains do not connects only point to point but also cities in the middle. This is... there is a very good link by air between Madrid and Barcelona (in fact, several years ago they were the two cities with more number of daily flights) but no service Madrid-Tarragona, Guadalajara-Barcelona... and Zaragoza-anywhere. Renfe takes some passengers of those stations. The main is point to point... but it is not all!!


Quote:
Living in Zaragoza you've probably taken these trains to Madrid or Barcelona. Do they tend to be full or close to it?

Quite easy... nine years ago when Madrid-Lerida line was opened, trains ran only 200 km/h and took 1h45m in a Madrid-Zaragoza non-stop or 2h00m if stops at Guadalajara and Calatayud.
(now it takes 1h15m if non stop)
We had less than half trains than now.

And... I had to buy tickets for friday afternoon.... with 10 days in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!!


We have more than double of trains and I guess they do not exist if empty.

I do not know exactly tendences (and comparing with cars and planes) but I read an article that passengers using this line were more than 50% in Spain (it includes e.g Madrid-Pamplona or Barcelona-Vigo....)


Quote:
There was a discussion some time ago in these threads and the common opinion was that Renfe is good at building the lines,
Little hint:

RENFE (REd Nacional de Ferrocarriles Espa˝oles: Spanish Railway National Network) is a public entreprise only for operating trains (freight, commuters, regional, high speed...)

ADIF (Administraciˇn De Infraestructuras Ferroviarias: Railway Infrastructure Managing) is the public entreprise who builts and take care (including maintenance and keeping) of lines and stations)


Quote:
but not so good at selling tickets for the trains.

Renfe took an entreprise decission several years ago of positioning on a high level status for passenger transport. There had been something well done and other ones absolutely failure! (for instance, the new nigth trains)

But since the last spring we have receive several improvements in the bussiness strategy. So many that SSC forumers are really impressed.

Some of them are:
- Possibility to buy tickets four months in advance (before, only 2 months)

- Free commuter train shuttle if availability in origin/destination. This is, if your origin station OR your destination station is in a commuter city network (in other words, if you go to these stations or areas: Malaga, Sevilla, Cadiz, Murcia, Alicante, Valencia, Castellon, Barcelona, Zaragoza, Madrid, San Sebastian, Bilbao, Santander and Oviedo...) you will have the tickets for departing from any station and arriving to any other station.
Your ticket will have two commuter booking references. You dial it on machines and you will get a free ticket to get into the commuter train and arrive the station for your high speed train.
In other words... should you arrive Barcelona airport and want to go to the centre of my city you can buy a Barcelona-Zaragoza AVE ticket and will include two booking references for commuter. One can be used for Barcelona-Airport to Barcelona-Sants were you will take the train and the other one for Zaragoza-Delicias to Zaragoza-Goya. Both of them absolutely free.

- Better system for discounts. In valley trains you can reach up to 70% discount. And a more dynamic system for discounts that helps you to take a nice price if not travelling on peak hours.

- Connection!!!!!. Before spring, Renfe worked only point to point (like Ryanair), no connection assured even with their trains except in a few few cases.
Now they offer several ones and they increase the trains offered.
The first case was with the Madrid-Cadiz- They had three trains point-to-point with a few stops.
They put a fourth one and offered to shuttle between several different trains AVE Madrid-Sevilla and later with regional Sevilla-Cadiz.

Until spring, only 3 trains Madrid-Cadiz. Now... try do search on the web!!!
There are more examples, but this one was the first one.



There are too many things to improve yet... but we have had so many changes this year....
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)

Highcliff liked this post
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #593
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

and let me surf on Spanish threads to look for occupancy rate and share in the line Madrid-Barcelona
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 10:59 PM   #594
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Great to hear that they have improved so much! The discussion I remembered was from 2010 or 2011...

It yet again illustrates the point that significant improvements to public transport systems do not necessarily require billions. The trains here in Switzerland are nothing compared to yours in speed (no particular need for it to be honest), but after 3 years living here I'm still impressed how punctual they are, how little one needs to wait in the stations for even the most bizarre connections and how well they are connected with the post bus system. Just cross the border in France and the only place you can go to really fast is Paris...

P.S. I knew that RENFE is not building the lines, but couldn't remember the abbreviation for the agency which does. They are both government owned anyway.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:20 PM   #595
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It yet again illustrates the point that significant improvements to public transport systems do not necessarily require billions. The trains here in Switzerland are nothing compared to yours in speed (no particular need for it to be honest), but after 3 years living here I'm still impressed how punctual they are, how little one needs to wait in the stations for even the most bizarre connections and how well they are connected with the post bus system.
It is a different situation. Being longer distances, need of speed is higher!.

Swiss trains has been well known because punctuality and because you can reach almost anywhere with it.

Spain has a very low density and located in major cities, so the situation is different.
But even is different the countryside cost. This has been discussed in several motorways threads. Being "in the middle of nowhere", should the administration needs to buy the land, in Spain it will be much, much, much cheaper than in any other European country. That is why, for instance, in Spain they make a 2x2 motorway and have important shoulders and will consider the future enlargement to 3x3 (buying the lateral sides).
In some European countries that will be amazing!. If they need a 2x2 motorway they buy the land exactly for a 2x2 just only because those costs.

Building costs can be equivalent, but land costs are really cheap... and that is an important factor to take care when planning motorways or railway trains.


Quote:
Just cross the border in France and the only place you can go to really fast is Paris...

Or... to Spain.

Tunnel between Figueres and Perpignan was opened almost two years ago and there are TGV trains Figueres-Paris and Figueres-Geneve served by SNCF. The tunnel is a high speed line. France has plans to continue the high speed until Perpignan, but it can be served by TGV in conventional railways.
In Spain we have the two different gauges. So right now there are trains Figueres-Girona-Barcelona that shuttle with the TGV and stop in the same, same platform. In the same platform, on one side, international gauge and TGV trains. On the other side, Spanish gauge and trains to Barcelona.
It is a temporary situation. It is estimated to finish the Barcelona-Figueres line in April 2013 so... any train will have international gauge from Sevilla or Malaga to anywhere in Europe (and Perginan-Malaga will be full high speed train for instance...)



Quote:
P.S. I knew that RENFE is not building the lines, but couldn't remember the abbreviation for the agency which does. They are both government owned anyway.

RENFE is a public entreprise that will be made private with concurrence in passenger transport.

For freight, Renfe is just one out of the seven companies that operates in Spain (the major one but not the only)
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:25 PM   #596
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

I meant no particular need for high speed in Switzerland due to small size and difficult geography. Spain and France are more than 10 times bigger so the situation there is clearly different. Sorry for the confusion.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:33 PM   #597
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

No confusion... I understood it.
In the same way, no one considers the railway in the United States doesn't matter the speed.

You just have the wish to arrive somewhere in a specific time and railway can be competitive or cannot.

And whised times are, obviously not the same in a small or big country, as well as are not the same in a long distance or commuter train...
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:46 PM   #598
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

I don't think it's true about railway in US. It's just that they are extremely averse to spending any public money on infrastructure at the moment (republicans in particular). Washington-NYC-Boston route is only ca 20% longer than Madrid-Barcelona and with at least 3 times as many people living there...
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 01:04 AM   #599
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

Corner to corner in US I needed to point on.

In short journeys, similar to Europe. Also in California.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 23rd, 2012, 10:54 AM   #600
alserrod
Bienvenue Ó Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,821

In this page you (where some SSC forumers collaborate) you will find too many data about high speed train Madrid-Barcelona.

They are updated to February 2011 so last full year is 2010, but you can compare traffic between stations because status of train was almost the same than today.

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Tr%C3%...rcelona-Madrid

You have the number of passengers station to station and per year.

To see increase, october 2003, opening Madrid-Lerida, december 2006 opening Lerida-Tarragona, february 2008 opening Tarragona-Barcelona.

About 2010:

Madrid-Barcelona: 2.570.000 passengers
Madrid-Zaragoza: 1.250.000 p
Zaragoza-Barcelona: 520.000 p

Madrid-Tarragona and Madrid-Lerida: 310.000 and 270.000


(in 2010)

There were (and now there are more trains) two daily trains Barcelona-Sevilla and Barcelona-Malaga non-stop at Madrid. This year we have four ones (two B-Sevilla and two B-Malaga and somedays in summer an additional B-Sevilla where non-stop Barcelona-Cordoba!!!!!!)
These two trains made 510.000 passengers in 2010 considering all stations.


and you can compare some data of 2007, 2008 and 2009 plane-train (year before, year opening and year after the high speed line) and see that plane and train are 50-50% of public transport Madrid-Barcelona
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(JosÚ A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
adif, ave, high speed rail, spain in the world, valencia, zaragoza

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium