SPAIN | High Speed Rail

[Sunfuns]

Taking into account distance and population dynamics Madrid-Barcelona could be the most profitable line in Europe. I'm not so sure about others unless of course we count indirect benefits but those are difficult to quantify. Are there any data actually about already opened lines?

[AlexNL]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

I think since HSR can make money, they should concentrate whatever lower level of rail investment they can afford on high-speed rail and critical links (such as bringing HSR to La Coruña and Irún (and then Bordeaux), finishing the whole thing in Barcelona)

Then, within a decade there would be a Paris-Madrid HSR link via Bordeaux, faster than the one via Barcelona.

Investments need to be done in a way so that you can optimize the entire network for all users. Depending on the geography and layout of a country several designs for a railway system work:

• In France and the UK, most movements are focused on London. This is known as a "star" network. Therefore, it makes sense to focus improvements on reaching the center of that star. To complement services, tangential lines should be offered to connect the outer areas of the star.
• In countries such as the Netherlands, there are multiple "hot spots" (such as the Randstad area) that require massive transporation movements throughout the day and especially during rush hour. It therefore makes sense to optimize services within that core area (such as high frequency services) and to provide services to other parts of the country that offer good connecting services.
• There are countries for which a "hub and spoke" system design is more well-suited. An example of this is Germany: there are several major cities (such as Berlin, Hannover, the Ruhrgebiet), the transporation networks are focused on offering convenient services to reach those hubs. For transportation between the hubs, faster but less frequent trains exist.

However, all these system layouts share a common denominator: there needs to be a system thought behind it: if you build very fast high speed lines between the hubs, but the connections from the hubs to its spokes are sub par (such as offering a low frequency, waiting times of 45 minutes, using rolling stock that is 40 years old) the system as a whole becomes less attractive.

But even when you invest money to make a connection more attractive you will have to think it out in a broad scale: you might gain 5 minutes by investing in faster rolling stock, cutting out some obsolete infrastructure (such as points that are no longer used but still limit the maximum speed) and optimizing stops... but if you don't do a thing about the hub people won't gain anything from it.

A good example of this is the Fyra train in the Netherlands: despite providing a faster connection between Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Antwerp and Brussels... people from Dordrecht won't benefit at all from Fyra. People from Dordrecht will travel longer with Fyra (54 minutes, change at Rotterdam) than with the old Benelux train (51 minutes, direct connection).

My point is: investing in just HSR but completely forgetting about the rest of your network is dumb. A shiny brand new HSR station served by the most beautiful Velaro and AGV trains is useless if people can't get there easily.

If trunk and feeder lines are of good quality, HSR will be complementary to the railway system and passengers will benefit greatly from it. The Swiss get this very well.

[437.001]

Originally Posted by Vaud

Profit-wise I don't think that would make much sense... the great thing about Barcelona-France HSR is the possibility of linking Barcelona by HSR with Toulouse, Marseille, Lyon, Genève and even Italy, and not just Paris, but distance from Madrid to any of them is too high and there's not much going on between Madrid and Paris via western or central France.

Actually, when the French finish the Nimes-Perpignan stretch, that is, someday (), destinations such as Strasbourg, Brussels and London will be reached easily.

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Maybe when some new tilting HSTs come up, capable of speeds of 350km/h on current HSR 270-300 tracks.

[437.001]

Originally Posted by AlexNL

My point is: investing in just HSR but completely forgetting about the rest of your network is dumb. A shiny brand new HSR station served by the most beautiful Velaro and AGV trains is useless if people can't get there easily.

Well, it depends. I´m from Tarragona. Before, we used to travel to Zaragoza in at least 3 hours, now it´s 1h15min. To Madrid in 5 hours or more, now in 2 hours and a half. The Tarragona AVE station is outside the city, and not connected to the classic rail network. It´s still worth it though.

If trunk and feeder lines are of good quality, HSR will be complementary to the railway system and passengers will benefit greatly from it. The Swiss get this very well.

They do... but Switzerland and the Netherlands are smaller countries with a higher density. Different needs, then.

[AlexNL]

Originally Posted by 437.001

Well, it depends. I´m from Tarragona. Before we used to travel to Zaragoza in at least 3 hours, now it´s 1h10min. To Madrid in 5 hours or more, now in 2 hours and a half. The Tarragona station is outside the city, and not connected to the classic rail network. It´s still worth it though.

The time gain alone still makes it interesting to travel to the Tarragona AVE station, definitely. However, as public transport is a complex network its attractiveness should be increased as much as possible.

Given that the Tarragona AVE station (Camp Tarragona) is located away roughly 10 km from the city centre, it might not be easy for everyone to reach the station. Therefore, the train becomes less attractive as it's harder to reach the city centre.

This problem could be (partially) mitigated by providing express buses to the station with a good connection, and easy availability of tickets.

They do... but Switzerland and the Netherlands are smaller countries with a higher density. Different needs, then.

The Netherlands and Switzerland are very comparable when it comes to network layout: multiple very important cities that require good connections between them. And they're there.

[Suburbanist]

The Spanish old (pre-HSR) network was so outdated and slow that even an "airport approach" to HSR, with some stations far removed from urban cores, can still work nicely, since the main competitor on those relations are (were) planes or, gosh, buses.

To that scenario contributes terrain, huge distances (compared to those in other parts of Europe), an urban hierarchy that is dominated by a few large areas with not much in between (there is really not much on the vast arid plateau between Madrid and Valencia or Madrid and Zaragoza, for instance) and a state that was way poorer than its neighbors such that is couldn't afford the modernization the French or Italians or Germans did to their own networks in the 1950s and 1960s.

Actually, before air de-regulation in the 1990s, bus was the major form or non-motorized intercity travel in Spain, with an importance unseen elsewhere in Western Europe.

[Sunfuns]

Originally Posted by 437.001

Well, it depends. I´m from Tarragona. Before, we used to travel to Zaragoza in at least 3 hours, now it´s 1h15min. To Madrid in 5 hours or more, now in 2 hours and a half. The Tarragona AVE station is outside the city, and not connected to the classic rail network. It´s still worth .

In cases like this (station 10 km from the city center) a good tram connection would mitigate the situation for visitors. Is there one in existance or being planed? For locals station further might not be that bad because it's easier to use it as park and ride. Of course would be even better if there was a rail connection between the new station and the old one. That would cost a lot, though...

[alserrod]

Originally Posted by Sunfuns

In cases like this (station 10 km from the city center) a good tram connection would mitigate the situation for visitors. Is there one in existance or being planed? For locals station further might not be that bad because it's easier to use it as park and ride. Of course would be even better if there was a rail connection between the new station and the old one. That would cost a lot, though...

There will be a new line from the HSR near that station through the south with a new station at Reus airport. By the way, trains will be able to drive in the HSR and change to Tarragona centre. Somewhere there is a plan about the lines scheme.

But works remain stopped

[gincan]

Originally Posted by Sunfuns

In cases like this (station 10 km from the city center) a good tram connection would mitigate the situation for visitors. Is there one in existance or being planed? For locals station further might not be that bad because it's easier to use it as park and ride. Of course would be even better if there was a rail connection between the new station and the old one. That would cost a lot, though...

There is a plan to build a new train station next to Reus Airport, this plan was obviously conceved by local politicians dreaming of turning Reus Airport into a regional airline hub, a pipedream at best since that airport only serve charter tourists, and no airline will ever set up a hub there when they can use Barcelona airport.

The proper plan would have been to build the railway station on top of the existing railway between Reus and Tarragona, thereby creating a railway hub. With tram-trains using the existing railway infastructure you could build a small network of lines between the hub and the surrounding cities having the trams reaching into the heart of Tarragona, Salou and Reus extending the immediate access of the hub to virtualy all of the 300K residents in the catchment area.

Then they could name the station Reus-Tarragona-Salou or Reus-Tarragona-Salou-Vilaseca to please all the local politicians.

[437.001]

Originally Posted by AlexNL

The time gain alone still makes it interesting to travel to the Tarragona AVE station, definitely. However, as public transport is a complex network its attractiveness should be increased as much as possible.

Which means: not possible, given the current situation.

Given that the Tarragona AVE station (Camp Tarragona) is located away roughly 10 km from the city centre, it might not be easy for everyone to reach the station. Therefore, the train becomes less attractive as it's harder to reach the city centre.

Not so much: the Tarragona area (called Camp de Tarragona) is rather populated (in Spanish scale), with another city of nearly the same population (Reus with 100,000, while Tarragona goes to 130,000), and four having more than 20,000 (Valls, Vila-seca, Salou, and Cambrils, of which all but Valls have dramatic population increases each summer since they´re beach resorts -you can add a zero to their population in summer-), and a little further away another town having more than 40,000 (El Vendrell), and a number of smaller towns with population between 5,000 and 20,000.
That makes around 500,000 in winter and more or less 1,500,000 in summer. The station is located somewhere in the middle (though not right in the middle), and has easy road access.

This problem could be (partially) mitigated by providing express buses to the station with a good connection, and easy availability of tickets.

That has to be solved as soon as possible: the bus service to that station is not good, and not frequent enough.

The Netherlands and Switzerland are very comparable when it comes to network layout: multiple very important cities that require good connections between them. And they're there.

I meant both Switzerland and the Netherlands when compared to countries the size, distribution of the population, and density, of France and in particular Spain.

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

The Spanish old (pre-HSR) network was so outdated and slow that even an "airport approach" to HSR, with some stations far removed from urban cores, can still work nicely, since the main competitor on those relations are (were) planes or, gosh, buses.

To that scenario contributes terrain, huge distances (compared to those in other parts of Europe), an urban hierarchy that is dominated by a few large areas with not much in between (there is really not much on the vast arid plateau between Madrid and Valencia or Madrid and Zaragoza, for instance) and a state that was way poorer than its neighbors such that is couldn't afford the modernization the French or Italians or Germans did to their own networks in the 1950s and 1960s.

Actually, before air de-regulation in the 1990s, bus was the major form or non-motorized intercity travel in Spain, with an importance unseen elsewhere in Western Europe.

This is one of the messages when you don´t troll. +1 to nearly everything you say.

Originally Posted by Sunfuns

In cases like this (station 10 km from the city center) a good tram connection would mitigate the situation for visitors. Is there one in existance or being planed?

Kind of. But not seriously. And it has been cancelled because of the crisis.

For locals station further might not be that bad because it's easier to use it as park and ride.

That is, if the park & ride is not too expensive as it´s our case!

Of course would be even better if there was a rail connection between the new station and the old one. That would cost a lot, though...

In fact, the Camp de Tarragona AVE station is located right where an old station of a disused line was. The old line was closed in 1990, and though it avoids Tarragona, it would serve Reus and El Vendrell (and even parts of southern suburban Barcelona) very well.

Originally Posted by alserrod

There will be a new line from the HSR near that station through the south with a new station at Reus airport.

No, the station won´t be AT the airport, but across it. It´ll be like 2km from the airport terminal to the station.

By the way, trains will be able to drive in the HSR and change to Tarragona centre. Somewhere there is a plan about the lines scheme.

This is yet to be seen. I don´t believe they´ll do it.

But works remain stopped

It´s been 20 years since they started!

Originally Posted by gincan

There is a plan to build a new train station next to Reus Airport, this plan was obviously conceved by local politicians dreaming of turning Reus Airport into a regional airline hub, a pipedream at best since that airport only serve charter tourists, and no airline will ever set up a hub there when they can use Barcelona airport.

Ahem...

The airport doesn´t serve only charters. It does, but there´s Ryanair too.
I just don´t get how that station would help transform our airport into an airline hub, when the station (if they ever open it, which could happen... or not) is located 2km away from the airport terminal. Not that it´s a big airport though, of course.

Actually they chose that location simply because it´s right in the middle between Tarragona, Reus and Salou, and has very easy road access, not for the airport. If the airport were not there, the location would still be very good.

The proper plan would have been to build the railway station on top of the existing railway between Reus and Tarragona, thereby creating a railway hub. With tram-trains using the existing railway infastructure you could build a small network of lines between the hub and the surrounding cities having the trams reaching into the heart of Tarragona, Salou and Reus extending the immediate access of the hub to virtualy all of the 300K residents in the catchment area.

Actually that tram-train was planned, and the idea was to link it to that station. But it was never taken seriously, the Tarragona area, despite having a reasonably good rail network, which is one of the most used in Spain as far as regional trains is concerned, remains one of the most car-oriented areas in the country for several reasons, one of the main being the fragmented urbanisation of the territory.

[alserrod]

quite cool!!!!


Real position, origin, destination, timetable, next station and number of trains of all high speed trains, long distance and regionals of RENFE

http://positren.nebulacodex.com/

Just shuttle trains (cercanias) are missing

[437.001]

Hi there.

Next month:

Barcelona-Paris in 6h30min, twice per day, with a change at Figueres-Vilafant station.
Rumour says this will be possible from January the 8th 2013 (but the exact date remains still unknown for the public).

Add 30 more minutes for Camp de Tarragona station (Tarragona, Port Aventura, Salou, La Pineda, Cambrils), or more than 1h with another change at Barcelona-Sants station for a regional classic train.

Add 1h more for Lleida station, 1h50m more for Zaragoza station, around 2h50m more for Guadalajara station.

It´ll be possible to do Paris-Madrid twice per day, with just a change at Figueres-Vilafant station, the travel time will be of around 10h.

It´ll be possible to do in just one day Paris-Seville or Paris-Malaga (and vice-versa), once per day, by changing at Figueres-Vilafant station and then at Barcelona-Sants station. This will take like 12h.

Stations on the French side concerned by these news are: Paris-Gare de Lyon, Valence-TGV, Nîmes, Montpellier-St Roch, Narbonne, Perpignan.

This will be valid only till March the 31st of 2013.

=================================================================================

From April the 1st of 2013 on, there will finally be direct TGV Paris-Barcelona (and they say Geneva-Barcelona too), without the need to change trains at Figueres-Vilafant station. Travel time will be slightly shortened then (like 10 min less or so).

[Suburbanist]

Paris-Madrid in 10h is just too long to be competitive with air travel, given the many flights on that route daily from Orly, C.D.G. and Beauvais.

[alserrod]

Willl Lyon have stops in some trains?

Paris-Madrid wouldn't be competitive at all but think in any city in the middle with more than half million around and how many flights they have.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Paris-Madrid in 10h is just too long to be competitive with air travel, given the many flights on that route daily from Orly, C.D.G. and Beauvais.

It doesn't have to be competitive with air travel. And such a train serves more than just the endpoints. It only has to be more agreeable than flying, which is quite easy nowadays.

I do see a lot of potential for cross - pyrenees traffic, and along the med. Barcelona - Toulouse, and Barcelona - Marseille for example.

[alserrod]

Let's think in somewhere that can shuttle at Valence and somewhere to shuttle at Zaragoza.

How many possible destinations do we have?
Which is the best link by plane?

[Suburbanist]

My fear is that the Spanish are going to reduce their security protocols by allowing too many international trains whose origination stations (in France) don't follow the x-ray / ID check (not only ticket check) Renfe set up as the golden security standard for the AVE (if ignored often still). Soon they will use it as en excuse to start allowing passengers near a high-speed train in Barcelona without all the proper luggage x-rays and other anti-terrorist procedures.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

My fear is that the Spanish are going to reduce their security protocols by allowing too many international trains whose origination stations (in France) don't follow the x-ray / ID check (not only ticket check)

And everybody else's fear is that the Spanish are not going to reduce the security theatre.

Renfe set up as the golden security standard for the AVE (if ignored often still). Soon they will use it as en excuse to start allowing passengers near a high-speed train in Barcelona without all the proper luggage x-rays and other anti-terrorist procedures.

You like to give the impression that you are in favor of capitalism and the free market. It therefore still amazes me that you keep defending something that has a negative value and a large cost...
The security theatre RENFE employs in Spain is a useless. It is trivially easy to get a bomb on an AVE train. That this doesn't happen is just because the terrorist threat only exists in our minds.

[437.001]

Originally Posted by 437.001

Hi there.

Next month:

Barcelona-Paris in 6h30min, twice per day, with a change at Figueres-Vilafant station.
Rumour says this will be possible from January the 8th 2013 (but the exact date remains still unknown for the public).

Finally it´s not January the 8th, but January the 7th. Official.

[437.001]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Paris-Madrid in 10h is just too long to be competitive with air travel, given the many flights on that route daily from Orly, C.D.G. and Beauvais.

This is true, but most people won´t be doing the whole Paris-Madrid by train, as it´s rather long. I bet some will though.

Anyway, the main interest will be the intermediate stops, and of course Barcelona.
Zaragoza and Montpellier, too, btw, since both have a population bigger than 500,000 people.

Originally Posted by alserrod

Willl Lyon have stops in some trains?

Not yet, we´ll have to wait till April, in April they say there´s going to be a new Geneva-Barcelona TGV, surely calling at Lyon-Part Dieu.
Barcelona-Montpellier-Lyon-Geneva is a promising route.

Paris-Madrid wouldn't be competitive at all but think in any city in the middle with more than half million around and how many flights they have.

That is, Zaragoza. Zaragoza is as big as Bordeaux and Toulouse, and has bad air links.
Travelling from Zaragoza to Montpellier will be very easy now, and there´s a potential.

Originally Posted by K_

I do see a lot of potential for cross - pyrenees traffic, and along the med. Barcelona - Toulouse, and Barcelona - Marseille for example.

Montpellier and Zaragoza will benefit quite a bit from these new trains.
Travelling from Zaragoza to Montpellier these days is awful. It won´t be anymore.

As for Lyon, Toulouse and Marseille (and Geneva in Switzerland), all of them will benefit from direct connections to Barcelona and/or Zaragoza and Madrid later. Now there aren´t enough trains ready yet.

With a further change at Barcelona-Sants station, cities like Castellon, Valencia (Spain), Alicante and Murcia will also benefit from it.

With a further change at Valence-TGV (France) station, cities like Lyon, Vienne, Grenoble, Annecy and Chambéry will do too. Other cities like Strasbourg, Lille, Besançon, Mulhouse are also concerned by this change.

With a further change at Montpellier-St Roch station, cities like Marseille, Toulon, St Raphael, Cannes, Antibes, and Nice are also concerned.