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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:27 AM   #681
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Once in a while you say something which makes me want to think "He's not a troll, after all". But then you spout your love for AnsaldoBreda and the V250 again, and I am reassured once more.
I didn't say I love AnsladoBreda, I just like the concept of the V250, which could have been the best European high-speed compact consist, although its development had been plagued by delays and technical issues.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 04:29 AM   #682
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Currently it looks like we'll have
3 or 4 return trips Barcelona - Paris. Some might extended to Madrid.
1 return trip Barcelona - Marseille
1 return trip Barcelona - Geneve
1 return trip Barcelona - Toulouse
In April. In January itīll be eight Madrid-Barcelona extended to Figueras.
Two of them will offer interchange to a TGV Paris-Figueras.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
How about medium distance trains to Figueres/Perpignan? Will there be any on the new line?
Not for now, nor in the near future.

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Unlike the cities mentioned those places would be close enough for frequent traffic.
At which cost?

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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Isn't that a Velaro in the above picture? I love the look of the Velaro, best looking high speed train in my opinion.
It is a Velaro. I prefer TGVs though. Dunno why, maybe itīs that Iīm more accustomed to them.

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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
In my opinion the Velaro's design is very sleek indeed (except Velaro D), but the New Pendolino (ETR 600) is even better looking if you ask me. Renfe has them too, they're S/114 a.k.a. Avant.
I prefer the Velaro in this case. Personal taste.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It would also be nice so see some V250 running there, if only other railway companies gave AnsaldoBreda another chance (which they probably won't, at least on high-speed rolling stock)


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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Once in a while you say something which makes me want to think "He's not a troll, after all". But then you spout your love for AnsaldoBreda and the V250 again, and I am reassured once more.
+1
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:31 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
In April. In January itīll be eight Madrid-Barcelona extended to Figueras.
Two of them will offer interchange to a TGV Paris-Figueras.
January this year? But this would mean that it is already possible to travel Figueres - Barcelona - Madrid on standard gauge. Why are not TGVs extended then yet?

Any timing information yet?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #684
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This new stretch of the line will have only six trains per direction per day (+freight)? That's why I asked about traffic to cities a bit close than Paris or Marseille. It's probably true that there wouldn't be more demand for such long trips than they currently anticipate. If expensive new line is built why not try to utilize it fully?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
This new stretch of the line will have only six trains per direction per day (+freight)? That's why I asked about traffic to cities a bit close than Paris or Marseille. It's probably true that there wouldn't be more demand for such long trips than they currently anticipate. If expensive new line is built why not try to utilize it fully?
The forecast for the line was for about 34 trains per day in each direction. Of these 14 train pairs would be passenger trains, the rest freight. However, at the moment the number of freight destinations that can be reached over standard gauge in Spain is still too limited. That is about to change in the future, with more broad gauge lines receiving a third rail.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:39 AM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I didn't say I love AnsladoBreda, I just like the concept of the V250, which could have been the best European high-speed compact consist, although its development had been plagued by delays and technical issues.
The V250 is a high speed train, but not a "very high speed train" like TGV and ICE. There aren't much vendors that supply trains for just the HST market so AnsaldoBreda could've had a chance if they had proven to be capable of building a reliable high speed train.

However, after just having witnessed a brand new V250 (#4811) standing at Rotterdam Central and hearing an announcement that the service won't run because of a broken train - knowing that the 4811 is the train that was supposed to run that service - doesn't exactly give me confidence.

Now to get matters slightly back onto Spanish high speed rail: a few months ago I was at the InnoTrans trade fair, where Spanish manufacturer Talgo had their AVRIL high speed train on display. I have to say: that is quite a beautiful train. Very spacious on the inside, even despite the 3+2 seating arrangement.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #687
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International Paris Barcelona trains were due to start in 2012? What has caused this delay?
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Old December 6th, 2012, 07:17 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by cal_t View Post
International Paris Barcelona trains were due to start in 2012? What has caused this delay?
Something with signaling
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Old December 6th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
January this year? But this would mean that it is already possible to travel Figueres - Barcelona - Madrid on standard gauge. Why are not TGVs extended then yet?

Any timing information yet?
As far I know, the French trains are not yet approved in Spain (and can just reach Figueras), and viceversa.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The forecast for the line was for about 34 trains per day in each direction. Of these 14 train pairs would be passenger trains, the rest freight. However, at the moment the number of freight destinations that can be reached over standard gauge in Spain is still too limited. That is about to change in the future, with more broad gauge lines receiving a third rail.
It looks go me like there will be far less than 34 trains per day per direction next year...

High speed lines in Spain in general could use another operator with a complimentary strategy (in addition to RENFE not instead of it). I'd be willing to bet that with reasonable prices there would be more demand than currently captured. The new Italo service on similarly underutilized lines in Italy seems to be doing well.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
January this year? But this would mean that it is already possible to travel Figueres - Barcelona - Madrid on standard gauge. Why are not TGVs extended then yet?

Any timing information yet?
The Gerona station is not finished yet, which is a handicap, and the homologation of both TGVs in Spain and AVEs in France isnīt finished (in the case of the TGVs it hasnīt even started).

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
This new stretch of the line will have only six trains per direction per day (+freight)?
Eight AVE per day and direction. Till April.

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That's why I asked about traffic to cities a bit close than Paris or Marseille. It's probably true that there wouldn't be more demand for such long trips than they currently anticipate.
It isnīt so much a matter of demand (or lack of, which itīs yet to be seen), but a matter of phisically being able to have trains running. Alstom is in delay, the TGVs able to enter Spain should have been ready by now. The uncertainty about the calendar hasnīt helped much, either.

Quote:
If expensive new line is built why not try to utilize it fully?
Because itīs not possible yet!

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Originally Posted by cal_t View Post
International Paris Barcelona trains were due to start in 2012? What has caused this delay?
Budgetary cuts (Spain and the euro and so on...). They should have done so not in 2012, but in 2009!

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Something with signaling


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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As far I know, the French trains are not yet approved in Spain (and can just reach Figueras), and viceversa.
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
It looks go me like there will be far less than 34 trains per day per direction next year...
Itīs likely, the line is actually not finished, itīll be ready to operate, but not at full pelt.

Gerona station isnīt finished yet, and the construction of the Barcelona-Sagrera station is not advanced yet, either.

Quote:
High speed lines in Spain in general could use another operator with a complimentary strategy (in addition to RENFE not instead of it). I'd be willing to bet that with reasonable prices there would be more demand than currently captured. The new Italo service on similarly underutilized lines in Italy seems to be doing well.
That is entirely another question.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
This new stretch of the line will have only six trains per direction per day (+freight)? That's why I asked about traffic to cities a bit close than Paris or Marseille. It's probably true that there wouldn't be more demand for such long trips than they currently anticipate. If expensive new line is built why not try to utilize it fully?
The big problem right now is capacity in Barcelona. The new train station under construction will not open for another 4 or 5 years, the existing one is already very crowded and could easily collapse with a large increase of trains. There was a plan to expand the existing train station but that will probably not happen for many years to come.

It is ironic because the existing station can actually handle a huge increase in train movements but on the passenger side it needs a massive overhaul, it is simply to small to handle any large increase of travelers.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #693
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The big problem right now is capacity in Barcelona.
To an extent.

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The new train station under construction will not open for another 4 or 5 years,
Says who?

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the existing one is already very crowded and could easily collapse with a large increase of trains. There was a plan to expand the existing train station but that will probably not happen for many years to come.
Are you certain of it?

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It is ironic because the existing station can actually handle a huge increase in train movements but on the passenger side it needs a massive overhaul, it is simply to small to handle any large increase of travelers.
Itīs not exactly 'too small'. It simply needs more escalators for each platform. It can cope now with the passenger flow of a full TGV Duplex (but slowly)...

Though it canīt cope with the flow of a full double TGV Duplex, thatīs true. Itīd need like 20 minutes to empty the platform from the passengers getting off of a full double TGV Duplex.

Montpellier-St Roch station has a better system of stairs and escalators, and thatīs not saying much, frankly.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #694
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Itīs not exactly 'too small'. It simply needs more escalators for each platform. It can cope now with the passenger flow of a full TGV Duplex (but slowly)...

Though it canīt cope with the flow of a full double TGV Duplex, thatīs true. Itīd need like 20 minutes to empty the platform from the passengers getting off of a full double TGV Duplex.
What they could do is get red of this crazy idea of station as an airport. Get rid of the checkpoint, have all stairs available both for passengers arriving and leaving, and just have a big concourse linking all stairs. Like all other stations in Europe...
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Old December 8th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #695
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Those checkpoints are there for a reason: to keep the ETA from attacking the high speed trains. As long as there's no final solution for the ETA problem those checkpoints will remain.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #696
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Those checkpoints are there for a reason: to keep the ETA from attacking the high speed trains. As long as there's no final solution for the ETA problem those checkpoints will remain.
Those checkpoints are there only to pretend that something is done. They are not in any way going to stop someone from bombing a high speed train. The system is by no means watertight. When I was in Sants I could have gotten on an AVE for Madrid without having passed any checkpoint...
Only the major stations have checkpoints. All you need to do is enter the system via one that doesn't doe checks.
It's like only locking the front door of your house, leaving a clear note on it that the back door is unlocked, and pretending that this will somehow stop burglars.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #697
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+1 but Calatayud remains with checkpoints...

In my humble opinion, they are non-sense controls
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Says who?
Before the economic crisis the opening of the station was sheduled for 2016, now it depend on financing which is still unclear.



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Are you certain of it?
Who will pay for it? Barcelona is bankrupt, the central government is bankrupt, there are no private investors interested in the station so who is going to pay for it?



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Itīs not exactly 'too small'. It simply needs more escalators for each platform. It can cope now with the passenger flow of a full TGV Duplex (but slowly)...
To add more escalators they need the reconstruction. However it will not improve people flow, already now it suffer during peakload. To really bring Sant into the 21 century the station need a complete overhaul.

Something like this proposition is needed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MssyWPaZMWs
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Old December 8th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #699
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By the way for the new line north of Barcelona where will the trains stop before reaching the border? Only in Girona and Figueres, right?

Spain will almost certainly have to slow down the infrastructure spending, but it would be a shame if worthwhile projects were not finished. I'd certainly count the new Barcelona station among them.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #700
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I think since HSR can make money, they should concentrate whatever lower level of rail investment they can afford on high-speed rail and critical links (such as bringing HSR to La Coruņa and Irún (and then Bordeaux), finishing the whole thing in Barcelona)

Then, within a decade there would be a Paris-Madrid HSR link via Bordeaux, faster than the one via Barcelona.
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