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Old January 21st, 2013, 06:10 PM   #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoser_barcelona View Post
Better late than never. Some pro and some anti propaganda are taking place (best ever, took so long etc.) I am happy the money our northern-european brethren have shared with us has been invested partially in trying to upgrade our infrastructures and bring them up to an average European standard.
Spain now has the 2nd longest highspeed network in the world (so I'm not sure that this is "average European standard...") If you read the newspapers in Spain many commentators seem to complain only that the short haul train connections are quite poor. Experts claim that the money could have been better spent in that area.

Also with late I meant late relative to the Seville-Madrid line. It's odd that connecting with Europe has had to take so long.

Experts also claim that the radial system is not very effective. It's odd that potentially the 2nd most important route in Spain (Valencia-Barcelona) still has no proper HSR.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 07:06 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
Experts also claim that the radial system is not very effective. It's odd that potentially the 2nd most important route in Spain (Valencia-Barcelona) still has no proper HSR.
Valencia-Barcelona is NOT the 2nd most important route in Spain.
That´s Madrid-Valencia.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 07:58 PM   #843
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Spain did excellent use of EU funds and local allocated to infrastructure compared to what ohter countries like Ireland and Greece did. It's got an impressive network of fast highways and railways.

This excuse of investing in local service is bogus, high speed train serve different needs than a Cercanias. It is like comparing local boulevards with controlled access autopistas
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:00 PM   #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Valencia-Barcelona is NOT the 2nd most important route in Spain.
That´s Madrid-Valencia.
1st line Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (1 Mad-Bcn; 2 Zgz-Mad)

2nd line Madrid-Córdoba-Sevilla/Málaga (1 Mad-Sev; 2 Mad-Mlg)

3rd line Madrid-Cuenca-Valencia

4th line Madrid-Valladolid-Norte

5th line Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante-Murcia


2013 estimated passengers by MD and LD services, not commuter rail.

Line 1 and 2 are really similar in traffic, like line 4 and 5.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:04 PM   #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Valencia-Barcelona is NOT the 2nd most important route in Spain.
That´s Madrid-Valencia.
My mistake. 3rd then. But we can't compare the current situation since one is HSR and one is not.

In terms of freight traffic the Valencia-Barcelona line would possibly be bigger don't you think? Another item completely neglected by inept planning.
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Last edited by Ribarca; January 21st, 2013 at 08:11 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:06 PM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Spain did excellent use of EU funds and local allocated to infrastructure compared to what ohter countries like Ireland and Greece did. It's got an impressive network of fast highways and railways.

This excuse of investing in local service is bogus, high speed train serve different needs than a Cercanias. It is like comparing local boulevards with controlled access autopistas

To use your analogy. What is the purpose of traveling very fast over highways if you then get stuck in the city because the local infrastructure is bad.

I'm not making the complaints up. Scientists who studied this (like Germa Bel, http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/ti...istory/bel.htm) come up with this.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:18 PM   #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
My mistake. 3rd then. But we can't compare the current situation since one is HSR and one is not.

In terms of freight traffic the Valencia-Barcelona line would possibly be bigger don't you think? Another item completely neglected by inept planning.
Not 3rd as Madrid-Alicante sometimes overpassed Madrid-Valencia before the AVE and they stayed at the same level of traffic for decades..., now Valencia has more traffic but Alicante is getting its connection this summer...
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:31 PM   #848
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If Spain had spent all that money on local connections instead commentators would complain that it takes forever to travel between the big cities. As long as money is not truly unlimited, there is always something to complain about.

I also think that at least as far as trains and roads are concerned Spain did a pretty good job. There were however lot of excess in other areas (housing mostly, but also unneeded public buildings, airports etc) which is part of the reason for the current crisis...
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:32 PM   #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Spain did excellent use of EU funds and local allocated to infrastructure compared to what ohter countries like Ireland and Greece did. It's got an impressive network of fast highways and railways.

This excuse of investing in local service is bogus, high speed train serve different needs than a Cercanias. It is like comparing local boulevards with controlled access autopistas

The EU funds, in the total cost of the spanish high speed line, are only around the 10% of the total cost.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
My mistake. 3rd then. But we can't compare the current situation since one is HSR and one is not.

In terms of freight traffic the Valencia-Barcelona line would possibly be bigger don't you think? Another item completely neglected by inept planning.
Actually the mediterranen corridor could be situated at the 5th spanish line in MD and LD. In particular, the conection Valencia-Barcelona with 800.000 passengers could be placed after Mad-Bcn, Mad-Sev, Mad-Mlg, Mad-Vlc, Mad-Toledo, Mad-CReal, Mad-Valladolid, Mad-Zgz and Sev-Córdoba-Mlg

The three hours train conection Valencia-Barcelona is about 800.000 passengers and a share of 94% comparing with the plane. (from 20€ each way)
And 2 hours when the corridor will be finished with an estimated cost of 40-50€ each way

About the bus: 4 hours and 25€ each way

Car:3 1/2 hours and 80-100€ depending on the car (oil and tolls) each way


Sure it'll grow, but how much? it seems not to exist such a big relationship between both cities as they do with Madrid.
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Last edited by zazo,; January 21st, 2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 10:32 PM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
2013 estimated passengers by MD and LD services, not commuter rail.
You can't really make comparisons based on the actual number of passengers since services aren't equal.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:08 PM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
You can't really make comparisons based on the actual number of passengers since services aren't equal.
Well, actually the order would be exacly the same, just considering a growing of the east corridor with the Albacete-Alicante opening in June (the other lines grew as minimum a 100% more)
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 12:42 AM   #852
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 01:01 PM   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
To use your analogy. What is the purpose of traveling very fast over highways if you then get stuck in the city because the local infrastructure is bad.

I'm not making the complaints up. Scientists who studied this (like Germa Bel, http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/ti...istory/bel.htm) come up with this.
Germal Bel isn't considered a neutral source. Just beeing a "scientist" doesn't mean that everything you say is right, in special when we talk about economic sciences (a more specifically if you have been a politician involved in transports like Bel).

That book is just his theory.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 07:44 PM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zazo, View Post
2nd line Madrid-Córdoba-Sevilla/Málaga (1 Mad-Sev; 2 Mad-Mlg)
That´s two routes, not one.

If I added to this:

Quote:
3rd line Madrid-Cuenca-Valencia
Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Alicante

and

Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Elche-Orihuela-Murcia

...then I think it´s clear that it´s the second.
But we´ll have to wait for the HSL to open to see it.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 07:48 PM   #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
I'm not making the complaints up. Scientists who studied this (like Germa Bel, http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/ti...istory/bel.htm) come up with this.
If Germà Bel is a scientist ( ---> ---> ---> ), then I´m a nun.

He might be a good economist, but regarding infrastructure, he´s absolutely clueless.
To give you an idea, he´s even suggested that Barcelona should close underground (metro) lines.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:17 PM   #856
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Economy is a science...

In any case, I know there is a reasonable number of crazy street-level nazis in Spain (and a bit in Portugal) among the planning community who oppose virtually anything that is elevated OR underground, saying it kills the cities as people can't see and be seen from trains etc.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:30 PM   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Economy is a science...
In Spain it´s not considered a science, though, unlike Chemistry, Astronomy, Phisics or Medicine.

Quote:
In any case, I know there is a reasonable number of crazy street-level nazis in Spain (and a bit in Portugal) among the planning community who oppose virtually anything that is elevated OR underground, saying it kills the cities as people can't see and be seen from trains etc.
Oh, yees. The under-nimbys, we could call them.
They´ve even got as far as to demand the government to put underground the tracks through a village populated by 400 people...
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 10:02 PM   #858
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
In Spain it´s not considered a science, though, unlike Chemistry, Astronomy, Phisics or Medicine.


off topic

That's matter of opinion.

For a long time we have had an university grade called "Economics Sciences Grade". Today it is just "Economy Grade"
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 10:24 PM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
off topic

That's matter of opinion.

For a long time we have had an university grade called "Economics Sciences Grade". Today it is just "Economy Grade"
To finish the off-topic...

Economía:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAE.es
3. f. Ciencia que estudia los métodos más eficaces para satisfacer las necesidades humanas materiales, mediante el empleo de bienes escasos.
Which means... science that studies the most effective methods to satisfy the human material needs, through the use of scarce goods.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 10:45 PM   #860
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I should answer in Spanish to clarify the point, the translation into English loses its meaning. So...

Now, back to topic.
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