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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:47 PM   #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Spain did excellent use of EU funds and local allocated to infrastructure compared to what ohter countries like Ireland and Greece did. It's got an impressive network of fast highways and railways.

This excuse of investing in local service is bogus, high speed train serve different needs than a Cercanias. It is like comparing local boulevards with controlled access autopistas
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Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
To use your analogy. What is the purpose of traveling very fast over highways if you then get stuck in the city because the local infrastructure is bad.

I'm not making the complaints up. Scientists who studied this (like Germa Bel, http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/ti...istory/bel.htm) come up with this.

Spanish HSR network is radial and most routes cross great SECTIONS OF VOID distances to reach from METRO AREA CENTER to METRO AREA CENTER. And by metro area we mean regions with at least 1 million people each.





Our local (portuguese) HSR network serves 100% of the cities with population above 50.000 hab. with a single 400km route. And those above 25.000 are also served with AP/IC services at 160-200 km/h. Go figure!!!

Portbou-Barcelona-Valencia-Alacant/Murcia is in a situation similar to the portuguese/galician networks. Too much and too small to serve over much shorter distances than in the meseta.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:49 PM   #862
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An hypothetical Valencia-Zaragoza HSL would serve only Teruel as intermediate point :p
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 01:20 AM   #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
That´s two routes, not one.

If I added to this:



Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Alicante

and

Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Elche-Orihuela-Murcia

...then I think it´s clear that it´s the second.
But we´ll have to wait for the HSL to open to see it.
¿? It's only one route, called: 'Nuevo acceso a Andalucía' (Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Córdoba, Sevilla, Antequera, Málaga, and other southern cities), you find four HSL routes (full or partially)
The eastern one: (Cuenca, Albacete, Requena-Utiel, Valencia and Alicante in a future)
The northeastern: (Guadalajara, Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida, Tarragona, Barcelona, Girona, Figueres, Paris)
The northern: (Segovia, Valladolid, The north cities)

Each route or corridor has many different conections, so, obviously, Madrid-Málaga and Madrid-Sevilla are different conections, but in the same network and counted like that..
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 01:47 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Valencia-Barcelona is NOT the 2nd most important route in Spain.
That´s Madrid-Valencia.
This is quite debatable, population wise, Barcelona-Valencia corridor serve also Tarragona/Reus Castellon/Sagunto and a number of resorts along the Mediterranean coast. Madrid being the business hub of Spain is more important for the city of Valencia but that corridor is empty, Cuenca is smaller than Villareal. Madrid-Valencia HSR service struggle to reach 2 million passengers, this is IMO shockingly low for a 1H 30 min service between two cites combining 8 million inhabitants.

Passenger-wise, the Mediterranean corridor has probably double or triple the potential travel market to that of the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete/Alicante/Murcia one. The Mediterranean corridor is just so much more densely populated and also serve as a tourist destination reachable by HSR from France, northern Italy and parts of Switzerland/Germany.

And we have not even begun to mention the freight side, which is topic on its own.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 02:39 AM   #865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
This is quite debatable, population wise, Barcelona-Valencia corridor serve also Tarragona/Reus Castellon/Sagunto and a number of resorts along the Mediterranean coast. Madrid being the business hub of Spain is more important for the city of Valencia but that corridor is empty, Cuenca is smaller than Villareal. Madrid-Valencia HSR service struggle to reach 2 million passengers, this is IMO shockingly low for a 1H 30 min service between two cites combining 8 million inhabitants.
That´s because of the fares, too expensive.
These days, Renfe is starting to experiment with the yield management system, so it´s likely that soon fares will be more attractive.

Quote:
Passenger-wise, the Mediterranean corridor has probably double or triple the potential travel market to that of the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete/Alicante/Murcia one. The Mediterranean corridor is just so much more densely populated and also serve as a tourist destination reachable by HSR from France, northern Italy and parts of Switzerland/Germany.
You just can´t pretend the HSR to stop at each and every beach resort, can you?

Tourists that can reach that area will keep on doing it mostly by plane or car, except the French and a bit the Swiss (the Swiss are not the tourists that come to Spain the most, and in the end it´s a small country). Germany is already too far away to provide more than two trains/day.

Paris-Murcia must be more than 1,500 km.

Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.

Quote:
And we have not even begun to mention the freight side, which is topic on its own.
Yes, but freight is much less dependant of the travel time than passenger trains.
And freight doesn´t need a HSL, does it? What freight needs is no different gauge, that´s all.

Last edited by 437.001; January 23rd, 2013 at 02:45 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 03:16 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.
Building just for that would be way too expensive, but depending how "tourist" is defined it's a significant segment of HSR traffic.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:23 AM   #867
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For those who say that the radial system doesn't have any sense in Spain... what do you suggest?

This is a map showing the pop. density of each municipality:


As you can observe... there is almost nothing in the middle with the exception of Madrid. This not justifies a fully radial system as the coast is also very populated, but it justifies the radial base.

This is a map with the HS lines (blue) and planned (yellow, ...long-term, not comprehensive, not complete, some unconfirmed lines, some upgrades and planned change of gauge of conventional lines included):


As you observe... it won't be fully radial but... why doing the radial part first... and the Madrid-Sevile?

As you can observe Andalucia is more or less densely populated... in fact it's more populated than Catalonia! And with a new access to Andalucia you can cover a lot of highly densely populated cities just branching the line at the Andalucian side (allowing also transversal trips within Andalucia).

Probably the Madrid-Barcelona line would have been a better first experience, but the government wanted to show the new Spain to the world... and Madrid-Sevilla was just a much easier and faster option.



Later the 90's crisis stopped or slowed down the construction of new lines until the 00's... but they were able to upgrade the Barcelona-Tarragona-Castello-Valencia-Alicante line to up to 220Km/h.

But first you have to understand why Spain is developing such a high speed network... in the 80's, when Spain was starting to wake up from a looong dictatorship and several economic problems, the rail network showed to be anachronistic, unefficient and with an expensive maintenance... then they started to plan how to modernize the network and discovered that making new lines was cheaper than upgrading the old lines... furthermore, making high speed lines was not much expensiver so they decided to make a high speed network with the trial of the Madrid-Seville line...

Later they observed another problem... the different gauge was a nightmare in the international connections... so they planned to change the gauge in all the network, and they arrived just in time to change the Madrid-Seville project... but later they found that the cost of the change was unaffordable so they planned something more realistic... they would put new (high speed) lines where needed (where it was a better option than renewing the line) throwing away most of the existing conventional lines... and later they would change the survivor lines... for making that easier and cheaper in the future, they started to install polyvalent sleepers on those lines when maintenance was needed.

At some point in the future, the Spanish network will migrate to standard gauge with few remanent of other gauges (like metric) and the survivor conventional lines will be used to meshing the network and then hopefully the government will put all their emphasis in improving the local and medium distance services.

So the mediterranean corridor, having some of the best conventional stretches wasn't put in the top list of priorities...
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:33 AM   #868
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I agree with you to a large extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Probably the Madrid-Barcelona line would have been a better first experience, but the government wanted to show the new Spain to the world... and Madrid-Sevilla was just a much easier and faster option.
Wasn't it perhaps a political decision with Felipe Gonzalez from Andalucia at the helm?

Andalucia is very populated as you say but it's very large ands nowhere near the density of Catalonia. Connecting to Barcelona alone allows millions of people access to the network.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
So the mediterranean corridor, having some of the best conventional stretches wasn't put in the top list of priorities...
This is my main gripe since in terms of exports, the harbors and industrial output of the Mediterranean basin this line has so much potential. In any other country this would have been one of the first lines to be built is my opinion.

This is what Germa Bel (that pseudo scientist reasons is the root of the radial thinking (and not economic thinking) in Spain. For being a pseudo scientist it's remarkable that he gets published in some of the most important economic Journals in the word.

http://www.ub.edu/irea/working_papers/2010/201016.pdf

Thus, the map of the King’s Highways instituted by Felipe V was consolidated as the radial road map of Spain by means of the 1761 decree, which established the six core axes with their six main roads. Gómez Mendoza (2001, p. 349) describes the reasons behind this design as follows: “By means of a network of this type, the Bourbon legislators sought to satisfy administrative objectives (post and information), military, and of public order (the supply of goods to Madrid). They ignored purely economic objectives”. In fact, the question of efficiency and the contribution of the transport system to productivity and the economy were neglected in favor of administrative and political objectives (Madrazo, 1984, pp. 62-63 and 159). Political and government interests were the priority, and a model was born that would become permanent in Spain.
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Last edited by Ribarca; January 23rd, 2013 at 06:39 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:58 AM   #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
I agree with you to a large extent.
Wasn't it perhaps a political decision with Felipe Gonzalez from Andalucia at the helm?

Andalucia is very populated as you say but it's very large ands nowhere near the density of Catalonia. Connecting to Barcelona alone allows millions of people access to the network.
It's possible, but have in mind that Spain had 2 big international events in 1992... one in Sevilla (Expo'92) and the other in Barcelona (The Olympic Games) so the time was an important constraint...

West Andalucia is far more populated than East Andalucia but still it's true that Catalonia is more densely populated... I don't have doubts that both solutions were good but geographically the Sevillian option was more accessible both economically and "engineeringly".

Furthermore Andalucia has always been one of the poorest regions of Spain so it was a good chance to boost them.

Anyway it has a possitive side for Barcelona as it won a better and mature HS Line approved for speeds up to 350Km/h (and it's said that the outline can accept even higher speeds) instead of the 300Km/h with a lot of slower sections of the Madrid-Sevilla line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
This is my main gripe since in terms of exports, the harbors and industrial output of the Mediterranean basin this line has so much potential. In any other country this would have been one of the first lines to be built is my opinion.
It's really hard to find the balance between investing in degraded areas and investing in promising areas... I think that neither Spain nor most of the autonomies have found a good balance :S

But it can't neither be said that it has been forgotten... and about the harbors... probably most (or the 100%) of rail freight is still in Iberian gauge...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribarca View Post
This is what Germa Bel (that pseudo scientist reasons is the root of the radial thinking (and not economic thinking) in Spain. For being a pseudo scientist it's remarkable that he gets published in some of the most important economic Journals in the word.

http://www.ub.edu/irea/working_papers/2010/201016.pdf

Thus, the map of the King’s Highways instituted by Felipe V was consolidated as the radial road map of Spain by means of the 1761 decree, which established the six core axes with their six main roads. Gómez Mendoza (2001, p. 349) describes the reasons behind this design as follows: “By means of a network of this type, the Bourbon legislators sought to satisfy administrative objectives (post and information), military, and of public order (the supply of goods to Madrid). They ignored purely economic objectives”. In fact, the question of efficiency and the contribution of the transport system to productivity and the economy were neglected in favor of administrative and political objectives (Madrazo, 1984, pp. 62-63 and 159). Political and government interests were the priority, and a model was born that would become permanent in Spain.
Maybe that's the root of the actual situation but we are talking about present... and now the radial system as the core of the netwok makes a lot of sense... for example our motorway network followed that system and now that is a mature system you can find a lot of cross-motorways... it's not only radial anymore but like a "spider web".
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 10:16 AM   #870
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In 1986 the less used railways in Spain where closed to traffic definitely. Since then they just focused in the most used ones.

One of them, near to be collapsed, was the Madrid-Seville. Since southern Castilla La Mancha (Santa Cruz de Mudela) to Seville there is a single rail and the pass from La Mancha to Andalucia was a bottleneck.
As far as refurbishment was very expensive it was planned to have a new branch from Brazatortas (near Puertollano) to Cordoba. The full plan will include a single refurbishment Madrid-Manzanares. Double rail Manzanares-Puertollano, incluiding catenary Ciudad Real - Puertollano, new HSL with Spanish gauge Puertollano-Cordoba and finally double rail Cordoba - Sevilla.

Being under construction, decission to have international gauge was taken... even if it took 21 years to arrive border (just two weeks ago!!). This required to make a new project for Seville-Cordoba and Puertollano-Madrid.
It wasn't easy, and wasn't well done. For instance, in Seville-Cordoba there is a curve in the middle of nowhere just because one company made a stretch considering 10 m away classic line and another one 13 m away there.
From Puertollano to Madrid they made a new station at Ciudad Real but they do not considered to link Toledo. So then, Ciudad Real and Toledo are so near and so difficult to arrive from one city to other, as far as going by train you will see away the nice regional capital but no stopping in the surroundings.

Why was this one the first HSL in Spain?. First reason could be find in a traffic congestion, a new solution proposed and a final decission to full international gauge. We could think that prime minister and second minister, both, were born at Seville too...

Some years later they started the Madrid-Barcelona in the same way. With the Calatayud-Ricla and Zaragoza-Lerida and later full line to Lerida. It was thought to open these two stretches in Spanish gauge and later all the line was under construction. First phase to Lérida, second one to Tarragona, third one to Barcelona and some weeks ago to Figueres, near the border.

Why did they took the decission to run with this project?. Maybe having political support for government from Catalan side could take part.

Things go in this way. Line Cordoba-Malaga was opened by a minister who was born in Malaga. For almost sixteen years we had a president from Valladolid and later from Leon... so think in the lane to Valladolid and enlargements.

Today president is from Galicia... just think in other projects...


Maybe projects that are with no location-relations could be the Basque Y and the Valencia/Alicante lane.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 11:49 AM   #871
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You just can´t pretend the HSR to stop at each and every beach resort, can you?
It doesn't have to, the stations are already there, all they have to do is to connect them with a HSR line.

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Tourists that can reach that area will keep on doing it mostly by plane or car, except the French and a bit the Swiss (the Swiss are not the tourists that come to Spain the most, and in the end it´s a small country). Germany is already too far away to provide more than two trains/day.
When it comes to tourist, the travel time is not important, the cost of traveling is the main concern, if there was a reliable charter service you would see dozens of trains every day between France/Germany/Holland/Belgium/UK and the Mediterranean coast packed with holiday travelers.

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Paris-Murcia must be more than 1,500 km.
And so? Every year millions of Europeans are willing to spend 12-14 hours in a plane traveling to south east Asia just for the sun, what makes you think spending half of that time on a train would be a problem?

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Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.
Neither were airports or highways built for tourist.

Last edited by gincan; January 23rd, 2013 at 11:57 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:37 PM   #872
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And so? Every year millions of Europeans are willing to spend 12-14 hours in a plane traveling to south east Asia just for the sun, what makes you think spending half of that time on a train would be a problem?
Ryanair, Vueling and Easyjet
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:55 PM   #873
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Economy is a science...
No. it. is. not.

Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.

There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.

The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:13 PM   #874
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No. it. is. not.

Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.

There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.

The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 07:01 PM   #875
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Economics is an applied science, but still a science. But I'll refrain from this epistemology discussion here

==========================

Will they deploy X-ray machines on Figueres station?

Does someone has a list of stations of HSR service in Spain whose platforms (used for high-speed trains) are sealed, gated or isolated by a check-in control, meaning you cannot go linger there unless you have a ticket?
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 07:53 PM   #876
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An hypothetical Valencia-Zaragoza HSL would serve only Teruel as intermediate point :p
As far I know some sections of this line have already been upgraded to 200 km/h, but remaining single track and not electrified.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:07 PM   #877
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An AVE leaving Cuenca station bound for Valencia, this morning:

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Old January 23rd, 2013, 10:13 PM   #878
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I just found this information (no idea if it's correct):



"Alta Velocidad Barcelona-Francia A partir de Junio se preveé que los TGV Paris-Figueras Prolonguen su recorrido hasta BCN-Sants ademas se preveé la creacion de un TGV Duplex Ginebra-Barcelona 1 servicio Madrid-Paris, y 3 Madrid-Lyon con AVE S-100"

Translated:

June 2013:
1 TGV Barcelona-Geneve (Suisse)
1 train Paris-Madrid (TGV or AVE?)
1 TGV Paris-Barcelona
3 AVE (S-100, old trains) Barcelona-Lyon

I hope this is true and the trains are coming!
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Old January 24th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #879
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I just found this information (no idea if it's correct):



"Alta Velocidad Barcelona-Francia A partir de Junio se preveé que los TGV Paris-Figueras Prolonguen su recorrido hasta BCN-Sants ademas se preveé la creacion de un TGV Duplex Ginebra-Barcelona 1 servicio Madrid-Paris, y 3 Madrid-Lyon con AVE S-100"

Translated:

June 2013:
1 TGV Barcelona-Geneve (Suisse)
1 train Paris-Madrid (TGV or AVE?)
1 TGV Paris-Barcelona
3 AVE (S-100, old trains) Barcelona-Lyon

I hope this is true and the trains are coming!
Wrong source. Right forum (www.tranvia.org), but wrong forumer (alberto200, isn´t it?).
Pay attention in that forum to the forumers cidaddosante (who´s not on SSC), canyailla, jotaerre, and Robertinho (who are on SSC, the three of them, though canyailla is not a regular poster here), the four of them are very reliable inside sources, not that one you quoted.

The forumer who posted this is a troll who keeps on posting false things for reasons only he knows.
I´m not saying that this can´t be like he says, perhaps it could actually be like that in the end, but we simply don´t know yet.
Actually, if he keeps on posting nonsense like this, he´ll be banned from that forum sooner than he thinks.

So wrong source.

Last edited by 437.001; January 24th, 2013 at 12:45 AM.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
No. it. is. not.

Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.

There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.

The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.
Applying that logics there is no science but physics. And even in physics many calculations are based on empirical evidence...

Besides what is economics. Is it Marketing (probably not a science), Macroeconomics, Microeconomic, Finance (e.g derivatives pricing based on formula's from physics), Accounting (not a science), Econometrics etc.
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