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Old February 19th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #961
alserrod
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Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
That's one hell of a tunnel! According to wikipedia Asturias has 1'077K inhabitants... how the hell is it going to be economically profitable? are there studies on this HSL faisibility?
The real reason is saving time. In the railway museum in Madrid (old Delicias station, located beside that commuter station) there is a Pajares railway mockup. It was taken that stretch because it could be the hardest for a railway.

As far as I know, tunnel is done, and platform coming from south is under construction but platform in the north is being under analysis and it could be possible to go on HSL until Asturias (after the tunnel) and later just the classic line. Just because since the tunnel to Gijon calling at Oviedo it will not save much time a new HSL.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 11:01 PM   #962
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Itīs the Antequera-Granada HSL, all pics have been taken near Antequera.
Pics in the messages 867, 868, and 869 are Antequera HSL future station, much more central than the current Antquera-Santa Ana parkway station on the Cordova-Malaga HSL.
Thanks! Is the single track line seem in several of those pictures then the conventional line to Granada?

Good to see that building is still ongoing even if slowly. As I remember from previous discussions this line was not among those particularly favored with funding.

By the way other than the virtually fiņished line to Alicante what is the next stretch closest to being finished? Would it be Olmedo-Zamora?
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Old February 19th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #963
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
By the way other than the virtually fiņished line to Alicante what is the next stretch closest to being finished? Would it be Olmedo-Zamora?

Maybe... the "second option" is not far at all: Valladolid-Burgos/Leon
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Old February 19th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #964
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
As far as I know, tunnel is done, and platform coming from south is under construction but platform in the north is being under analysis and it could be possible to go on HSL until Asturias (after the tunnel) and later just the classic line. Just because since the tunnel to Gijon calling at Oviedo it will not save much time a new HSL.
Sorry, but this is a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that the newly built line might not go all the way from Leon to Oviedo as originally planned? How far is it from the North end of the tunnel to Oviedo? Is there already a decent railway between Oviedo and Gijon? I've never been in that part of Spain, so my understanding of geography there is a bit murky

Pajares tunnel itself must be capable of saving massive amounts of time compared to what was there before.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 11:57 PM   #965
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Have a look to this picture (be aware!!, north is in the right side) and you can compare in google earth.



It is current classic railway.

Tunnel would finish 3 km south Campomanes. It will continue to Campomanes and classic line will be refurbished.

From Campomanes to the sea the network is OK. The real problem is "climbing" the Pajares pass (1378 m over sea level and not far away from the sea). This is why the tunnel will save a lot of time but not the rest of the line.

Campomanes-Oviedo (capital of that region) is 36 km.
Oviedo-Gijon (main port in the area and a lot of population), 30 km more.

So the question is if it worths to built 66 km to arrive to Gijon having one stop and... how much time will trains save there.

It will be ready to built a HSL at some other time but we are in some days where we should think in any new infrastructure and some regions still haven't HSL
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Old February 19th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #966
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Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
That's one hell of a tunnel! According to wikipedia Asturias has 1'077K inhabitants... how the hell is it going to be economically profitable? are there studies on this HSL faisibility?
I would say that most recent Spanish transport infrastructures were built without caring much about their cost-benefit ratio...there are many examples, Galicia HSL, Ciudad Real airport, many motorways with less than 2.000 vehicles per day...in my opinion the Pajares tunnel is the less mad of them, if Fomento decides to equip it also with broad gauge to allow freight trains to use it...
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Old February 20th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #967
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I would say that most recent Spanish transport infrastructures were built without caring much about their cost-benefit ratio...there are many examples, Galicia HSL, Ciudad Real airport, many motorways with less than 2.000 vehicles per day...in my opinion the Pajares tunnel is the less mad of them, if Fomento decides to equip it also with broad gauge to allow freight trains to use it...
I think Galicia HSL will be fine in the long run. Ciudad Real airport is an excellent example, though. Railroads could be used even if not at full capacity, motorways as well even if only by 2.000 vehicles per day (are there really significant stretches with this little traffic?). Airports no company wants to fly to not so much... Of course all this pales compared to housing boom.

As you probably know there is some concern about a potential housing bust in Switzerland as well. I wouldn't excpect anything approaching the Spanish disaster, but it might not be pretty.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post

So the question is if it worths to built 66 km to arrive to Gijon having one stop and... how much time will trains save there.

It will be ready to built a HSL at some other time but we are in some days where we should think in any new infrastructure and some regions still haven't HSL
Given the situation you described postponing it for the time being would probably be a sensible decision. I assume changing a gauge, as would have to happen for such a solution, doesn't result in a big time loss these days.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #969
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The another solution is the "third rail". Tardienta-Huesca has it.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 12:48 AM   #970
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The another solution is the "third rail". Tardienta-Huesca has it.
That's true. It does involve extra construction costs, though.

Since you mentioned Huesca - there is only one AVE per day going there from Madrid. What else is this line carrying - local trains and freight? I hope the answer isn't nothing at all.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 01:21 AM   #971
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Zaragoza-Tardienta has two rails, one classic and one UIC but limited at 200.

Trains in the classic line can be crossed in some stations but in the HSL???? only in Tardienta (it is a small town but in fact it is just somewhere to cross HSL in the middle of the station and... trains can stop there)


Nowadays there are:

Three Huesca-Zaragoza-Valencia regional trains
Two Canfranc-Zaragoza regional trains
One Jaca-Zaragoza regional train
and one Huesca-Madrid AVE train (two on friday and sundays)
and return trains, of course.

about freight I have no data. There is a little traffic but it exists!. In fact last news about that line (near Canfranc) was about a problem with a freight train. There are some southern France companies who carries in trucks their freight to Canfranc and later commute to trains. It can be one train per direction daily, it can be someone more... but not too much.

All of them share the same platform Tardienta-Huesca. AVE in the UIC gauge and the rest in the classic gauge.

By the way, I made a question in a Spanish thread without answer about if it worths. Not the specific solution but the whole project, because AVE is limited to 160 after Tardienta and average speed Zaragoza-Huesca is about 110-ish km/h only.

They could had built a direct HSL paralel to A-23 saving distances.



And... they put the catenary in 2000 (yeah, Huesca received the first electrical train!). Regular service with these trains started one and a half year later and... only for two years because they ERASED that catenary in order to put a catenary able for the AVE (they are not compatible)
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Old February 20th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Thanks! Is the single track line seem in several of those pictures then the conventional line to Granada?
Sorry, but I just donīt get what you mean in this sentence.
Could you please rephrase it, or write it (if thatīs possible for you) in French or Italian?

Quote:
Good to see that building is still ongoing even if slowly. As I remember from previous discussions this line was not among those particularly favored with funding.
So I thought. We havenīt seen many updates from Andalusian forumers, so we werenīt really aware of how advanced it was till today.

Quote:
By the way other than the virtually fiņished line to Alicante what is the next stretch closest to being finished? Would it be Olmedo-Zamora?
Yes, Olmedo-Zamora, on the Galicia HSL. Zamora station is already in works to upgrade it to HSR standards.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Sorry, but this is a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that the newly built line might not go all the way from Leon to Oviedo as originally planned?
Correct, it wonīt reach Oviedo in the near future.
It would be too costly to save only a few minutes.
Asturias is a very mountainous region, and the Pajares tunnel has its northern entrance at Pola de Lena, which is a commuter train station of the Asturias network. From Pola de Lena to Oviedo itīs only 12 stations in a narrow and densely populated valley, making the HSL reach Oviedo would mean too many tunnels and viaducts to save ten minutes only.

Quote:
How far is it from the North end of the tunnel to Oviedo?
Like 30km.

Quote:
Is there already a decent railway between Oviedo and Gijon?
Yes, from Pola de Lena to Oviedo and Gijon the line is double-tracked, and there are commuter trains.

Quote:
I've never been in that part of Spain, so my understanding of geography there is a bit murky
No wonder, you Northerners only come to the Med...
Asturias is in Northern Spain, Atlantic coast, west of the Basque Country and Cantabria. Like the rest of the Spanish Atlantic coast, it looks quite a bit like Britain or Ireland (really, it is that green, Iīm not exaggerating at all), but with higher mountains than the UK. If you have an umbrella and you donīt mind the rain (and the snow in winter), itīs a superb area, very very scenic, and has excellent food. It really is worth a trip.

Quote:
Pajares tunnel itself must be capable of saving massive amounts of time compared to what was there before.
This tunnel alone, countless of the rest of the HSL, saves one hour.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 08:01 AM   #973
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Sorry, but I just donīt get what you mean in this sentence.
Could you please rephrase it, or write it (if thatīs possible for you) in French or Italian?
I'm afraid I'm not fluent in those languages, could write it in German, Russian or Latvian but I don't think that would be helpful for you.

I was just wondering about the line in the photo below. Is that the old classical line to Granada or some more local side route?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ranadaysev.jpg

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
No wonder, you Northerners only come to the Med...
Asturias is in Northern Spain, Atlantic coast, west of the Basque Country and Cantabria. Like the rest of the Spanish Atlantic coast, it looks quite a bit like Britain or Ireland (really, it is that green, Iīm not exaggerating at all), but with higher mountains than the UK. If you have an umbrella and you donīt mind the rain (and the snow in winter), itīs a superb area, very very scenic, and has excellent food. It really is worth a trip. .
I have a Basque co-worker and she was telling me about the same thing.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 09:09 AM   #974
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off-topic ON

Northern Spain (includes Basque Country, Cantabria, Asturias and Galicia) has a similar weather and some traditions joined with western France, Great Britain or Ireland for instance.
There are high mountains near the sea so rains stop there. As an example, departing from Gijon-Oviedo to the rest of Spain, in less than 100 km you have to "climb" almost 1400m (departing from sea level).
Mountain passes there are "soft" coming from south and strong coming from North.

This is one of the cases of the Pajares tunnel.
Leon-Pajares tunnel has no geography problems.
Just the tunnel will save one hour journey.
Later if a 60 km HSL is made in a narrow and dense populated valley, only 10 minutes will be saved.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 02:22 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Thanks! Is the single track line seem in several of those pictures then the conventional line to Granada?

Good to see that building is still ongoing even if slowly. As I remember from previous discussions this line was not among those particularly favored with funding.

By the way other than the virtually fiņished line to Alicante what is the next stretch closest to being finished? Would it be Olmedo-Zamora?
Valladolid-Leon is more or less finished, it should be the next HSR line to open after Alicante.

Then you have the semi HSR (Vmax 220) line between Jerez and Utrera (Seville), that one could be opened within a year but funding is not enough so could be some years before it open.

Another semi HSR (Vmax 225) line between Santiago de Compostela and Vigo could be opened within say 18-24 months but the new trainstation in Vigo will not be ready for several years. Some contruction of this HSR can be seen in this video.


Last edited by gincan; February 20th, 2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #976
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As far as I know, the "official" line is Valladolid-Burgos and furthermore, Venta de Baņos-Leon is a branch.
Valladolid-Burgos/Leon should be opened at the same time (I hope)

Nevertheless, Medina del campo-Zamora is also advanced and we do not know which side will be first.

We just only know that Albacete-Alicante will be this spring. The other ones in the next two years (by the way... just before polls)
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Old February 20th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #977
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As far as I know, the "official" line is Valladolid-Burgos and furthermore, Venta de Baņos-Leon is a branch.
See this

http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc...cia_leon.shtml
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Old February 20th, 2013, 05:39 PM   #978
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I was just wondering about the line in the photo below. Is that the old classical line to Granada or some more local side route?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ranadaysev.jpg
Yes, thatīs the classic line Bobadilla-Antequera-Loja-Granada.

Quote:
I have a Basque co-worker and she was telling me about the same thing.
Iīm not surprised...
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Old February 20th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #979
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Valladolid-Leon is more or less finished, it should be the next HSR line to open after Alicante.
No.
It will be Olmedo-Zamora. Zamora station is already in works, one of the new tracks is already being installed.
It will take longer for Valladolid-Venta de Baņos-Palencia-Leon + Venta de Baņos-Burgos. Definitely after Olmedo-Zamora.
The gains in travel time and the expected increase in passengers are bigger in the Galicia HSL than in any other HSL to Northern Spain.

Quote:
Then you have the semi HSR (Vmax 220) line between Jerez and Utrera (Seville), that one could be opened within a year but funding is not enough so could be some years before it open.
Though itīs sometimes considered a HSL due to political reasons, that is just the upgrading and double-tracking of the classic line.
The Seville-Cadiz line, in the sectors between Utrera and Lebrija, and between Jerez de la Frontera and Aeropuerto de Jerez, sees commuter and freight trains.
Itīs in Iberian gauge, and itīs electrified at 3kV with classic signalling. So, well, I wouldnīt like to call it a proper HSL, although some sectors that have already been upgraded allow for 220km/h.

Quote:
Another semi HSR (Vmax 225) line between Santiago de Compostela and Vigo could be opened within say 18-24 months but the new trainstation in Vigo will not be ready for several years. Some contruction of this HSR can be seen in this video.

Actually, I forgot this, since itīs already in service in some sectors.
And as you say, itīs not exactly a full HSL, but somewhere in between an upgrading and double-tracking of the classic line (like the Seville-Cadiz) and a proper HSL (like Ourense-Santiago).
But it wonīt be fully opened before Olmedo-Zamora does, notably the new Vigo station.

Last edited by 437.001; February 20th, 2013 at 05:52 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #980
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As far as I know, I think that real line is Madrid-Bilbao.

However, Gijon and Irun are branches.
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