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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:20 PM   #1101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
For example in Madrid, the only line that could be changed without affecting the others would be the C-5... (and still it could require changing the line from the Portuguese border to Madrid, althought they could stablish a change of train in Illescas...
But you are thinking in changing Cercanias lines and not in changing general railway lines, wich is what would be done. For example, in the case of the C5, it will remain in iberian gauge in any case until the line to Extremadura (it currently doesn't continue to Portugal, just to the border, due to Portugal's lines suppression) is changed to european gauge. Is the change of the Extremadura line wich requires a changing of C5, and not vice versa.

The only problem is that it would require the division of Cercanias lines, not the general lines, and only at major stations. But if you look at the actual Cercanias map not a lot of divisions need to be created, because they aren't lines that run in two general lines. The exception are the Atocha-Chamartin tunnels but they could be double-gauged.

I could make an example map in other moment.

If, for example, you've changed the gauge of Madrid-Alcázar but not Madrid-Valladolid, commuters train could be still in use, some lines in iberian gauge and some in european gauge, but how will a freight train pass Madrid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod
If I had to make a guess I'd say that first commuter network (cercanias) in standard gauge would be Cadiz.
There was a big discussion about that. I don't think so. Cadiz doesn't have an alternative track for freight trains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns
Is it really worth it to re-gauge commuter train networks? What would be gained?
The only thing that would be gained is to mantain they running. The lines are going to be re-gauged, so the only way to have commuter trains running on them is to have european gauge commuter trains. All the current fleet was adquired with a preinstalation of european gauge.

The only alternative is to use double gauge tracks in all the network, but they aren't more than an experiment, traffics would be limited to 80 km/h, and it would be really more expensive.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:25 PM   #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- standard rolling stock
- easier time for new entrants (such as Arriva, Veolia) as they can lease... standard trains
- allow diversion of long-distance trains in case of disruptions on the LD lines
That's right but in every gauge changing plan these reason aren't used, they're used for long distance, regional and freight trains. The only reason that is used is because they share tracks with those other lines that will be re-gauged. If Cercanias had used isolated tracks they won't be re-gauged.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 09:40 PM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
But you are thinking in changing Cercanias lines and not in changing general railway lines, wich is what would be done. For example, in the case of the C5, it will remain in iberian gauge in any case until the line to Extremadura (it currently doesn't continue to Portugal, just to the border, due to Portugal's lines suppression) is changed to european gauge. Is the change of the Extremadura line wich requires a changing of C5, and not vice versa.
I strongly disagree, the Portugal-Humanes stretchs has like 10 daily trains... the Humanes-Móstoles has hundreds... the change of gaguge of that line will depend on the change of the Cercanías stretch instead of the other...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
The only problem is that it would require the division of Cercanias lines, not the general lines, and only at major stations. But if you look at the actual Cercanias map not a lot of divisions need to be created, because they aren't lines that run in two general lines. The exception are the Atocha-Chamartin tunnels but they could be double-gauged.
Cercanías trains follow routes, not lines, that's why changing the whole network is compulsory at a long term and that's why it's the most complicated part of the general network as it's where most lines merge....
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 10:46 PM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
I strongly disagree, the Portugal-Humanes stretchs has like 10 daily trains... the Humanes-Móstoles has hundreds... the change of gaguge of that line will depend on the change of the Cercanías stretch instead of the other...
Cercanias trains will never need to reach France or HS network, so there is no reason to re-gauge them. They could remain in iberian gauge for ever. It doesn't matter how many they are. Extremadura trains would reach France and HS network, so if the line is re-gauged is due to them.

Once the line becomes updated is clear that all of the trains of the line are involved, but are general radial lines which decide when and how.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Cercanías trains follow routes, not lines
After the last changes of the routes, almost all the routes use only one line plus Madrid tunnels.
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Last edited by Think; April 3rd, 2013 at 10:51 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:48 PM   #1105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- standard rolling stock
- easier time for new entrants (such as Arriva, Veolia) as they can lease... standard trains
- allow diversion of long-distance trains in case of disruptions on the LD lines
Trains cannot be moved easily and cheaply from one country to another, even if they are of the same gauge. Arriva, Veolia and similar could simply lease the rolling stock from the government.
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Old April 6th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #1106
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Girona TAV - Some photos from the station (WIP)






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Old April 6th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #1107
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That ballast less track looks very unusual. Probably just because I've never seen one before.

Last edited by Sunfuns; April 6th, 2013 at 10:17 PM.
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Old April 6th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #1108
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It looks like tram tracks. I love it.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #1109
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Nice station pics.

One question however: where are the x-ray machines and the checkpoint?
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Old April 7th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #1110
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Today I made a return journey and took some pictures.

Here they are:


Two AVE trains crossing at Calatayud station. I was going to take into the train approachin in the left and... while it was appearing... another train crossed in the opposite direction with non-stop



I think it is well-known. This is part of Zaragoza Delicias station. The first track is number 3 (international gauge). Usually, number 3 direction Madrid, number 2 direction Barcelona/Huesca







The small station of Calatayud. These two tracks are with Iberian gauge. Back to me there were four standar gauge tracks. Two of them besides to a platform and two more for trains without stop

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Old April 7th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Nice station pics.

One question however: where are the x-ray machines and the checkpoint?
Gone, on can only hope...
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Old April 7th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #1112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoser_barcelona View Post

This place is over or under ground? It's difficult to say with only one picture, but looks a very weird construction system for a seismic zone.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #1113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
This place is over or under ground? It's difficult to say with only one picture, but looks a very weird construction system for a seismic zone.
This area is where escalators lead down to the big 'hole' you can see on the other picture(s). This is still above ground and connected to Girona's old above-ground station through what is probably a temporary passage.

Just before getting into the circular cavity, there are the usual scanning machines. Sorry guys :-)
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Old April 7th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #1114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
One question however: where are the x-ray machines and the checkpoint?
I confirme they're there.

Until that policy is suppresed no exceptions are presumed.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #1115
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Yesterday I took an AVE at Calatayud, destination Zaragoza.
In this station, platform 3 is direction Madrid and platform 6 is direction Zaragoza.

I got surprised when I saw that a second station gate was opened in that side of the station. There is no population living there but there is an extra parking and can be faster to arrive there from villages around.

I took the lift, transfer under tracks and when I arrived to platform 6... there was a scanner located in the middle of nowhere !!!!!!!!!!
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Old April 10th, 2013, 01:30 PM   #1116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Trains cannot be moved easily and cheaply from one country to another, even if they are of the same gauge. Arriva, Veolia and similar could simply lease the rolling stock from the government.
ERA is working on improving interoperability with several projects, ERTMS/ETCS and several TSIs to name a few.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #1117
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But it's not the case now, and I doubt there will ever be an universal train.

For example, even if it could be possible to build a double deck train able to operate both in Germany and Italy, it would have to be able to run on two currents (which is more costly) and be built to the smaller Italian loading gauge (without using the extra space offered by the German loading gauge).

********************

What will happen in León now? I heard that the projected city tunnel has been abandoned, and a new station built on the existing line to the west. Is that true? Any detail or date for it?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:03 PM   #1118
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the projected tunnel is finished (the "hole"). But it is expected to have a refurbished in the northern side cos project until the shore will be quite expensive and few time saving. This is, the most important and difficult classic track stretch is saved by the tunnel. Later, running over the classic line you can reach Oviedo and Gijón. Let's remember that distance is not very much and it will call at Oviedo before arriving to Gijon.

Arriving to Leon and Burgos for HSL expected in 2015 (year of elections)
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #1119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
But it's not the case now, and I doubt there will ever be an universal train.

For example, even if it could be possible to build a double deck train able to operate both in Germany and Italy, it would have to be able to run on two currents (which is more costly) and be built to the smaller Italian loading gauge (without using the extra space offered by the German loading gauge).
Solution is a 40-year plan to convert all the major railway trunks in Europe to universal standards. Even at expense of local connectivity.

Look at how airplanes operate: there are very strict sets of regulations governing airports' ability to handle a plane or not. Of course not regional airport handles an A380! Of course not single sleepy terminal can process international passenger traffic. Of course not all airports are fit with the same systems allowing the same bad weather operation. Yet, once a plane is commissioned (in practical by the FAA and its European counterpart), you don't have to do tests to make sure it can operate in every single proposed route and airport. You build airplanes with stiff double or triple-safe fail requirements, they WILL have to work with the systems and threshold defined and once an airplane is certified, that allows it free range all over the World.

However, there are defined sets for each of the elements that are critical to determine whether an airport can, ex-ante, be considered fit for a given airplane or not.

Planes are then certified to specific standards, and can operate anywhere in the World where the airports meet its thresholds. You don't have to certify every new plane on every new route where you intend to operate them. You don't have to fly an A-380 on empty runs for six months to/from a new airport before starting selling tickets.

Train manufacturing should follow the same design. The idea that each train has to be individually certified on the tracks it will operate is unproductive, bizarre.

Then it comes standardization. There is NO excuses for not adopting an European-wide standard for open railways' (excluding closed systems like subway networks) electrification, likely on 25kV, 50Hz AC. If that had been set in stone 20 years ago, we'd be much more advanced on that now.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #1120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
the projected tunnel is finished (the "hole"). But it is expected to have a refurbished in the northern side cos project until the shore will be quite expensive and few time saving. This is, the most important and difficult classic track stretch is saved by the tunnel. Later, running over the classic line you can reach Oviedo and Gijón. Let's remember that distance is not very much and it will call at Oviedo before arriving to Gijon.
Sorry, I can't understand you. Are you referring to the Pajares base tunnel or to the city tunnel in León? Apparently the first one. If you prefer, you can write in Spanish, and I will translate.

Desculpame, pero no te entiendo. Estás hablando del túnel de Pajares o de el de León? A mi me parece del primero. Si prefieras, tu puedes escribir en español y yo voy a traducir.
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