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Old May 4th, 2013, 01:34 AM   #1161
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Zaragoza city, AVE Madrid-Barcelona

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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:19 PM   #1162
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Hey!

Today I used the TGV/AVE Paris-Barcelona, will report about the journey later!

A quick question: Both the TGV between Perpignan-Figueras and the AVE between Figueras-Barcelona were pretty slow. As what I saw, we never were faster than 200 kmh.

Is my feeling correct? What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan? When will it be raised to 300?

Thanks!
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Old May 7th, 2013, 11:39 PM   #1163
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The LGV Perpignan - Figueras was built to allow speeds up to 300 km/h, the track between Figueras and Barcelona should allow speeds up to 350 km/h (source: Wikipedia).

According to these posts, there are some power issues in the province of Girona that are currently hampering high speed services on the line. I'm not sure if this also applies to Perpignan - Figueras, perhaps there were other issues preventing the train from reaching 300 km/h.

Did your train arrive in Figueras on time?
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:06 AM   #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Hey!

Today I used the TGV/AVE Paris-Barcelona, will report about the journey later!
We´re waiting for it!

Quote:
A quick question: Both the TGV between Perpignan-Figueras and the AVE between Figueras-Barcelona were pretty slow. As what I saw, we never were faster than 200 kmh.

Is my feeling correct?
Yes. So it was on Saturday April the 27th when I did Tarragona-Perpignan and vv.

Quote:
What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan?
Around 200km/h.

Quote:
When will it be raised to 300?

Thanks!
Answer below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The LGV Perpignan - Figueras was built to allow speeds up to 300 km/h,
Correct.

Quote:
the track between Figueras and Barcelona should allow speeds up to 350 km/h (source: Wikipedia).
That will not be possible on all of the line.
The sector between Barcelona and at least Montmeló has narrow bends which don´t allow for 350, nor even 300.

Same goes for the entrance to Girona coming from Barcelona, there´s a rather narrow bend right before entering the Girona tunnel.

The sector between Girona and Figueras will be allowed for 300 though.

Quote:
According to these posts, there are some power issues in the province of Girona that are currently hampering high speed services on the line.
Yes. There´s a general lack of power in the Girona province.
This has led to the construction of a very high tension electric line (known in Spain as MAT -Muy Alta Tensión- and in France as THT -Très Haute Tension-), between Baixas (France) and Bescanó (Spain).
That´s supposed to also feed the HSL, as two power stations (Riudarenes and Santa Llogaia d´Alguema) will be able to feed the line. Right now they remain disconnected.

This makes that the number of paths is limited for now, since there´s not enough power to keep many trains running at once yet.

They´ve actually made up a temporary connection to a power station at Sant Celoni, and they´ve made an agreement with TP-Ferro (owner of the international section of the HSL) to borrow them the power station at Le Soler in France to pump some power to Spain for the HSL.

When the Very High Tension electric line is finished, those two power stations will finally be connected, and the paths and maximum speeds will be reviewed, but between Barcelona and Girona I seriously doubt the 300 will be reached. If any, maybe between Riells and the Girona airport.

Quote:
I'm not sure if this also applies to Perpignan - Figueras, perhaps there were other issues preventing the train from reaching 300 km/h.
Mmm... no. But it´s limited to 200 as a measure of security, since the TGV trains now running there (TGV Dasye) aren´t the final model that will run on the line (these will be the TGV 2N2 3UH).

Although if the TGV is not on time the TGV driver might accelerate a little more than allowed.

Quote:
Did your train arrive in Figueras on time?
If it came from Spain it surely did, if it came from France it maybe did, but that´s less likely.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 08:02 AM   #1165
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Today I will be going on a return trip Barcelona-Sevilla non-stop with a 2 hours break in Sevilla!

Does anybody of you have an idea where to get a good and not expensive lunch around Sevilla central station? Thanks!

Btw. If somebody wants to join me today for a drink in Sevilla at 14.30 or in the evening in Barcelona, just tell me! I send you my mobile number then :-P

I am really excited about todays high speed travel to Sevilla!
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Old May 8th, 2013, 09:57 AM   #1166
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The Perpignan-Figueras section is only 44 km long, and with two stops not much distant one another (maybe 50 km? the distance between Perpignan and Figuras includes a section of non-TP Ferro line), so 300 km/h would be hardly achievable. I suppose when there will be HS trains not stopping in Figueras and Girona speed will increase also on the TP Ferro line.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 11:32 AM   #1167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Is my feeling correct? What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan? When will it be raised to 300?
The TGV Perpignan-Figueres is supposed to be already allowed to 300 km/h.

The speed sheet for Figueras-Barcelona is this (by jotaerre):



As we could see:

- The speed limit for the line isn't 300 km/h in any condition, except maybe the branch Girona-Figueres wich wasn't in service when this document was printed.

- The line signaling system is BSL (Side Signaling System), a backup system used when the ERTMS doesn't work, wich is limited to 200 km/h.

There isn't a clear date of when the ERTMS will be completly on service. In other cases, it was in and out service sometimes before it was definitly put into service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Although if the TGV is not on time the TGV driver might accelerate a little more than allowed.
If I were the chief of the driver, trust me that he shouldn't.

That's not a minor issue, imagine that there is any incident for a cause not related to the driver but they found that he was going at overspeed... he becomes seriusly charged. Also the speed limitations are very squeezed in rail, f.e., if the derailment safety speed of a curve is 54 km/h it might get limited to 50 km/h, and you never know what is the real margin of the next curve. In the case of a limited signaling system like this, being overspeedly may cause you to overpass a signal due to breaking distance. So overspeed is never a good idea.

Last edited by Think; May 8th, 2013 at 11:45 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 06:58 PM   #1168
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Basically the line is finished to the extent that trains can run on it, but not yet to 100% of design specifications. I wonder if timetables will be reorganised as well once the trains are able to use the full line speed or it will just be used as a safety margin.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #1169
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According to what happened in precedent lines timetibles will be reorganised, but don't expect big changes, they'll be just some minutes.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #1170
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Update on the new HSL Albacete-Alicante (phase 2 of the Madrid-Alicante HSL).
This new extension is said to enter service by June the 23th or 24th.

Pictures of Alicante station:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Fotos del forero alc en www.tranvia.org, de las obras de la estación de Alicante:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alc
Hola a todos. Hoy he podido acceder con "tranquilidad y legalidad" dentro del recinto de las obras y hacer unas fotos desde una posición elevada y que no es accesible ni lo será, por la proximidad de los hilos de la catenaria, especialmente en lo alto del muro de contención que delimita la nueva playa de vías y os muestro unas fotos del estado actual a poco más de mes y medio para la llega del AVE a la nueva terminal de Alicante.


Acceso de las 4 vías de ancho 1435 y las 2+1 de ancho 1668. Las de ancho 1668 se acaban justo despues de ese escape y no hay nada montado hasta las toperas. Las de ancho 1435 estan montadas y niveladas hasta las toperas.


Detalle del acceso de las vias ancho 1435


Detalle del espacio a ocupar por las vias ancho 1668


Detalle de andenes y vía 1, adaptada al espacio existente.

Un saludo
Pictures of trains during tests.
It seems that the AVE S-100 will assure most of these trains.

At Albacete station:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jotaerre View Post
Pues sí, ha habido suerte. En Albacete, hoy a las 15:26



Más fotos en Tranviaportal
On tests between La Encina (Alicante province) and Almansa (Albacete province):

Quote:
Originally Posted by bencenico71 View Post


¡¡S100 cazado!!, a las 09:40 de esta mañana, en dirección Madrid por la LAV Madrid Alicante, más o menos en el Km 405, justo después de pasar el viaducto sobre la A-35. Menos mal que mi novia ha estado rápida y lo ha podido pillar.
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Last edited by 437.001; May 13th, 2013 at 03:27 AM.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 11:34 PM   #1171
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Thanks for the update! The Alicante station, however, doesn't look completely polished with just a bit over a month left till the opening date. Is it supposed to be 100% finished beforehand or just enough to accept trains with some minor works continuing a bit longer? Or maybe it's just my impression

By the way it is my understanding that the full extension of this line to Almeria is pretty much canceled, but how about continuing to Murcia? Is that at least likely to happen? How about the branch to Valencia? Haven't read anything about that recently either.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #1172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Thanks for the update!


Quote:
The Alicante station, however, doesn't look completely polished with just a bit over a month left till the opening date. Is it supposed to be 100% finished beforehand or just enough to accept trains with some minor works continuing a bit longer? Or maybe it's just my impression
Well, actually this is the Alicante current station a bit upgraded.
The original project for Alicante station (which included a completely new underground Adif station, as well as an underground Tram station) has been postponed with no target date. I wouldn´t say it´s been cancelled, but obviously the money for it won´t be there in years.

As for the way it looks, you´re right, I´m not sure it will be in time for the opening either, but the orders from "above" are "it must open in June, whatever happens".

Everybody knows, though, that Adif can be VERY fast if need be.
So I wouldn´t rule out that Alicante station upgrade is finished by the end of June.
After all, the upgrade is quite simple, and all the services will stay were they are, except maybe the taxi stop and the luggage scanners.

This has an explanation: Alicante is Madrid´s main beach. It is expected to work both ways too, since tourists arriving to Alicante from other countries will have Madrid and its museums and historical sites much more at hand, and also the medieval city of Cuenca (classed World Heritage Site by the UNESCO).

It´s not unlikely that the Alicante HSL will be busier than the Valencia HSL, despite Alicante city being much smaller than Valencia city. Anyway, the Alicante province is the 4th most populated in Spain, just after the Valencia province, and it´s more populated than Seville or Malaga provinces.

The Villena station may not be in time, though, and in that case the HSL would open without Villena station till it were finished. Construction works at Villena are quite advanced too, but the main problem there is the road access to the station, which should be built by the Valencian regional government, that has been bailed out by Madrid, so they don´t have the money now.

The good news about austerity is that they won´t be building massive stations anymore, except for the future Sagrera station at Barcelona, and for the HSL station at Vigo (Galicia, NW Spain, and PM Mariano Rajoy´s home region ).

Quote:
By the way it is my understanding that the full extension of this line to Almeria is pretty much canceled, but how about continuing to Murcia? Is that at least likely to happen?
The extension from Murcia to Almeria hasn´t been cancelled, just postponed.

The extension from Alicante to Murcia is currently in works.

It is essential to get to Almeria, since that would cut travel times between Eastern Spain (and Madrid) and Andalusia. Now it takes 12 hours from Barcelona to Almeria, which should be cut to less than 6 hours, not to talk about freight. Madrid-Almeria is more than 6 hours now, that would be cut to 3h45min or so.

For now, works are more or less advanced between Murcia and Lorca. The problem is the Lorca-Almeria section, in which although works have started, they aren´t much advanced.

The main problem between Alicante and Almeria are the Murcia and the Lorca stations. They should have been underground, but now there´s no money for that. So now they don´t know very much what to do. There´s talk about third rail, or maybe a provisory station at Murcia, but things are unclear. Wait and see.

Quote:
How about the branch to Valencia? Haven't read anything about that recently either.
Apart from the Albacete-La Encina-Villena-Monforte del Cid-Alicante stretch, the Valencia-Xativa-La Encina branch is the most advanced of all the HSLs under construction.
Rails are in place between Valencia and Xativa, and the reconstruction and upgrade of the old classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and La Encina is rather advanced too (that will alllow to change the gauge on the HSL between Xativa and La Encina, which has been in use for many years but in Iberian gauge).
But since it isn´t radial, it is more prone to suffer delays, which is the case.
Works there have halted again, since budget didn´t have any more money for the line this year. But the state it is in, it should be open by 2015 (or even 2014). That will cut travel time between Valencia and Alicante in half (2 hours to 1 hour).
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Old May 13th, 2013, 06:06 AM   #1173
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As I hinted something about Vigo station and the HSL to Galicia (North Western Spain), here are a few pics.

This are the works at Vigo-Urzaiz station.
This was the classic Vigo station till it was closed and demolished a few years ago to make room for the HSL, and it´s been replaced by Vigo-Guixar station (which is the historical freight terminal).

Right now, Vigo-Urzaiz is a big hole:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltan View Post
Obras estación de Vigo-Urzáiz

Fotos desde un punto de vista inédito.

Son las 8:15, empiezan a arrancar el turno, salen las primeras bañeras cargadas.

Al fondo, pozo utilizado para la extracción de las tuneladoras.









Ya llevan cientos de miles de metros cuadrados de tierra excavados y aún falta por excavar hasta el túnel...

Es una obra gigantesca.


This is how Vigo-Urzaiz HSL station will look like, it seems. Not cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltan View Post
No sé que van a hacer con la parte Este, desde la pasarela que se ve en la cuarta foto hasta la boca de túnel, ya que en esa zona no se edifica. Supongo que quedará en zona verde si se cumplen los renders.


Se ve un poco en este render (antiguo, pues con el recorte de superficie comercial, habrá más verde). Por cierto, el triangulo sin verde, supuestamente es una zona al aire libre donde se verían las vías, que sería el único sitio en 20 kms.



And these are a few pictures of the works of the upgrade at Zamora station.
The Olmedo-Medina del Campo-Zamora will be one of the next sections of the Galicia HSL to be opened, by 2014 or 2015, they say:


Quote:
Originally Posted by jotaerre View Post
El twitter de @afzamorana nos ofrece esta foto de hoy mismo de la estación de Zamora

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandorallen View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by mandorallen View Post
Para poder usar los primeros andenes y suprimir el andén provisional queda muy poco.

Vista desde lado Orense:




Vista desde lado Medina:


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Old May 13th, 2013, 11:51 AM   #1174
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About Alicante.... Zaragoza opened its station in 2003 without being finished. Four months later HSL arrived there but only departures lounge was opened (all services where there. The opposite side of the statio remained closed)l.

In 2007 the bus station (located in the same building) opened and in 2008 the arrivals lounge was opened.

More than five years without all finished...
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Old May 13th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #1175
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What about the tram underground station at Alicante Termino? Will they build it only with the AVE underground station? Anyway, as it is now the tram system is quite useless (line 2 finished but never opened, single track on lines 1, 3 and 4, end of the line quite far from the railway station...). When will these faults be corrected?

As for Vigo: I suppose Google Maps is wrong, Guixar should be the freight terminal near the sea (with some passenger facilities added), and Urzaiz the station below shown as "Guixar" by Google. Am I right?
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Old May 13th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #1176
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Another question: where will Madrid-Vigo train pass? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?

Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?

(I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)
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Old May 13th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #1177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Another question: where will Madrid-Vigo train pass? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?

Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?

(I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)
32:50 into the video you can see the triangle track, or Santiago bypass.

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Old May 13th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #1178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Rails are in place between Valencia and Xativa, and the reconstruction and upgrade of the old classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and La Encina is rather advanced too (that will alllow to change the gauge on the HSL between Xativa and La Encina, which has been in use for many years but in Iberian gauge).
Really appreciate your detailed answers and cross posts from the Spanish section.

I'm not sure I understand correctly the part cited above, though. Is it that the HS line between Xativa and La Encina is already in use but as part of the classical line in Iberian gauge and the old classical line is currently closed for upgrade and needs to be finished before Xativa-La Encina stretch can change gauge and be dedicated to high speed trains?
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Old May 13th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #1179
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Just came to my mind that finishing the missing stretch of Alicante-Valencia HSL would also allow an alternative path from Madrid to Valencia. Obviously a significantly longer one, but still well within HS territory. Maybe worth trying it at some point.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 06:38 AM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
What about the tram underground station at Alicante Termino? Will they build it only with the AVE underground station? Anyway, as it is now the tram system is quite useless (line 2 finished but never opened, single track on lines 1, 3 and 4, end of the line quite far from the railway station...). When will these faults be corrected?
The tram lines now finish at Luceros station, 400 m away from the Alicante Adif station. The tram line should have been extended till the Adif station to provide a much needed link for Benidorm and the Costa Blanca towns, but the Valencian regional government has no money for now. We don´t expect it to be extended to the Adif station in years.

On the good side, the AVE ticket will offer a free combi-ticket with the Alicante tram, but I´m still not sure wether that will be posible only for the people going to Benidorm or also to the other stations on the tram line.

As for L2 of the Alicante tram, the Valencian regional government has announced it will finally open it (they didn´t find any private company that suited their conditions, in short).

Quote:
As for Vigo: I suppose Google Maps is wrong, Guixar should be the freight terminal near the sea (with some passenger facilities added), and Urzaiz the station below shown as "Guixar" by Google. Am I right?
You are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Another question: where will Madrid-Vigo train pass? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?
That´s true only for the trains not calling at Santiago de Compostela.
But the link is already built, as you can see on the YouTube below. We call it the Conxo by-pass:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
32:50 into the video you can see the triangle track, or Santiago bypass.

The last time I went there it wasn´t electrified yet, but it might be by now (or getting close to being finished).

Quote:
Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?
Not yet. I´ll tell more as I´ll get more info, but the last news are on the line of what you say.

Quote:
(I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)
Correct. The Galicia HSL has been controversial and expensive enough to add now another new branch to it, especially when we´re not precisely floating in a sea of money... and when we have many other HSLs (and the people who will use them!) waiting for completion and delayed because of the austerity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Really appreciate your detailed answers and cross posts from the Spanish section.


Quote:
I'm not sure I understand correctly the part cited above, though. Is it that the HS line between Xativa and La Encina is already in use but as part of the classical line in Iberian gauge
Correct.

Quote:
and the old classical line is currently closed for upgrade [...]
Not exactly. Let´s see (I made it too simple at first because for those who don´t know the line very well it´s rather tricky, even for the Spanish forumers):

-the classic line between Xativa and L´Alcudia de Crespins hasn´t been closed since it will not be upgraded yet, and it will stay single-track.

-the classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and Vallada (including Montesa station) has been closed for upgrading and double-tracking.

-the classic line between Vallada and Moixent had been closed years ago with the opening of the HSL, and is now being reconstructed and double-tracked.
Moixent station is the terminus of the commuter Cercanías Renfe Valencia services.

-the classic track between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera had been closed years ago with the opening of the HSL, and is now being reconstructed and double-tracked. To do so they´ve had to make a new platform for the classic line through Moixent, which will avoid Moixent station (that will keep on being the commuter terminus, though, since commuter trains will use the not-through tracks of the station), including a new tunnel, since at Moixent station the through tracks (that were shared by both the HSL and the classic line) coincided, and they will become part of the HSL.

-the classic line between La Font de la Figuera and La Encina is NOT being reconstructed and won´t be, since there it will be the HSL the one to have a new platform, while the classic line will use the current tunnel of the HSL, as the final HSL project has a triangle a bit off La Encina station, and also because La Encina tunnel poses a bit of a geological problem.

Quote:
and the old classical line [...] needs to be finished before Xativa-La Encina stretch can change gauge and be dedicated to high speed trains?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Just came to my mind that finishing the missing stretch of Alicante-Valencia HSL would also allow an alternative path from Madrid to Valencia. Obviously a significantly longer one, but still well within HS territory. Maybe worth trying it at some point.
Renfe have that in their mind. That is why they are building a triangle at La Encina.
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Last edited by 437.001; May 15th, 2013 at 06:53 AM.
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