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Old May 31st, 2013, 02:14 AM   #1201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
Very interesting!
It seems that in 2014 the Seville to Granada line can open up. Also the line from Valladolid to Leon and the line to Murcia, plus as far as Zamora (heading towards Galicia). Great progress!
None of this is true nor accurate.
The only HSL new stretch that might open is the Olmedo to Zamora line, but I´d rather say (probably) 2015... but we don´t know the schedule yet.

Then there´s the La Encina to Xativa and Valencia HSL, which is the most advanced of all the HSLs in works (Xativa station almost ready, rails in place, catenary and signalling not yet), but it needs to change the gauge between Xativa and La Font de la Figuera, and to finish the reconstruction and upgrade of the old classic line between Xativa and La Font de la Figuera. That should be for 2015, any delays would be hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
How easy is the transfer between Porta de ATocha and Atocha Subterránea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
It is/will be the same building. Puerta de Atocha is the overground sack station and Atocha-Subteránea is the undergrund through station they will build underneath Puerta de Atocha.
We can´t know that yet. That part of the station won´t be ready in years!

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The Barcelona-Madrid line can of cause be connected in the future, it will depend on when and if the Zaragoza-Logroño-Miranda de Ebro-Burgos strech will be built/converted for HSR, the majority of which is not even started and will not start construction for many years to come.
The connection of the Barcelona HSL to the tunnel under Madrid certainly won´t start in years.
But it won´t depend at all on wether a HSL between Saragossa and Vitoria would be built or not.

If any, the HSL would be Saragossa-Tudela-Pamplona-Vitoria, where it woudl connect to the Valladolid-Burgos-Miranda-Vitoria-Bilbao HSL.
There´s nothing about any Tudela-Logroño-Miranda HSL, as far as we know (I mean nothing beyond a line on maps drawn by politicians. And anyway it´s unlikely to happen).
And moreover, the HSL between Saragossa and Vitoria won´t start in many years, like you said.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 03:58 AM   #1202
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Old May 31st, 2013, 09:31 AM   #1203
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The only comfirmed opening for 2014 is Santiago - Vigo in the Atlantic HSL, in Galicia. It will open in Iberian gauge, as the HSL Ourense - Santiago - A Coruna, in service since 2011.

Together with Albacete - Alicante (next month), these are the only HSL which will open before the end of next year. Maybe Olmedo - Zamora could open too, but there is nothing official yet.

In 2015 at least we'll see Olmedo - Zamora, Valladolid - León and Tarragona - Vandellós, if there are not more delays. Perhaps Valencia - La Encina too and one of the Pajares tunnels between León and Oviedo. I don't know if Venta de Banos - Burgos could be ready by 2015...
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Old May 31st, 2013, 12:43 PM   #1204
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Iberain gauge or double gauge? Why would they open a Iberian guage HSL instead of using "cambio ancho" facilities.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 12:50 PM   #1205
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Currently only Iberian gauge, to be converted to standard gauge in the future, when the HSL between Olmedo and Ourense is ready. Being realistic, this won't happen before 2020, so it doesn't make sense to open an isolated standard gauge line which won't have connection to the rest of the HSL network for almost 10 years. It's easier to operate it for some years in Iberian gauge, despite the possibility of installing change of gauge facilities.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 03:10 PM   #1206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
The only comfirmed opening for 2014 is Santiago - Vigo in the Atlantic HSL, in Galicia. It will open in Iberian gauge, as the HSL Ourense - Santiago - A Coruna, in service since 2011.
NO! Just a small part of it (Pontevedra-Arcade and maybe another short stretch), not the whole of it.
Construction works at Vigo-Urzaiz new station have started, but they are very far from completion. Same goes for the Ulla viaduct between Vilagarcia and Padron.

Quote:
Together with Albacete - Alicante (next month), these are the only HSL which will open before the end of next year. Maybe Olmedo - Zamora could open too, but there is nothing official yet.

In 2015 at least we'll see Olmedo - Zamora, Valladolid - León and Tarragona - Vandellós, if there are not more delays. Perhaps Valencia - La Encina too and one of the Pajares tunnels between León and Oviedo. I don't know if Venta de Banos - Burgos could be ready by 2015...
In 2015, I´d be very angry not to see Valencia-La Encina open (which is the most advanced HSL), I´d be happy to see Olmedo-Zamora open, and I´d be pleasantly surprised to see Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos open.

As for all the others, I´d be very surprised.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 03:23 PM   #1207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

NO! Just a small part of it (Pontevedra-Arcade and maybe another short stretch), not the whole of it.
Construction works at Vigo-Urzaiz new station have started, but they are very far from completion. Same goes for the Ulla viaduct between Vilagarcia and Padron.

.
Are you sure? Pontevedra - Arcade will open next month, and the other sections of the line are expected to be completed before the end of next year, according to what I have read in the Spanish forum (also in other forums). Sources are usually well informed, but it is also true that the new Vigo-Urzaiz station and the Ulla viaduct involve a lot of work.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 05:05 PM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Are you sure? Pontevedra - Arcade will open next month, and the other sections of the line are expected to be completed before the end of next year, according to what I have read in the Spanish forum (also in other forums). Sources are usually well informed, but it is also true that the new Vigo-Urzaiz station and the Ulla viaduct involve a lot of work.
Now that the European Union has lectured Spain and forced it to divert construction funds to the Mediterranean corridor, other projects will receive less funds and so there will be more delays.

The good news is that hopefully within a reasonable time frame the missing link of the Tarragona-Valencia double tracked upgrade will finally open. The bad new is that other projects that are close to finished will receive less funds and naturally be delayed.

Santiago-Vigo was supposed to open already 2012, but a multiyear delay is "normal" in Spain when it comes to railways. For example Madrid-Barcelona delayed 6 years, Barcelona-Figueras delayed 8 years, etc.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 07:10 PM   #1209
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Hi there.

New Alvia services:

-Madrid-Ourense-Santiago-Corunna/Madrid-Ourense-Vigo-Pontevedra. Morning.
-Madrid-Ourense-Monforte-Lugo-Ferrol. Midday.
-Madrid-Ourense-Santiago-Corunna-Ferrol/Madrid-Ourense-Vigo-Pontevedra. Afternoon.
-Trainhotel Madrid-Vigo-Pontevedra/Madrid-Santiago-Corunna/Madrid-Lugo-Ferrol. Night train. Not too optimistic about this one, especially the Lugo-Ferrol branch.
-On Fridays only, an Alvia Madrid-Ourense-Santiago-Corunna.

Using S-730 trains.

It is hoped that these new services will boost the number of passengers on the line.
There was a demand for them.

The first phase of the upgrade at Zamora station is finished, trains already use the two new platforms:

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Old June 2nd, 2013, 07:14 PM   #1210
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On the other hand, classic trains will call at Antequera-Santa Ana station (ABOUT TIME!!! ).

-MD Seville-Granada-Almeria trains.
-MD/Regional Express Granada-Antequera (center)-Bobadilla-Ronda-Algeciras trains.

Unfortunately, the MD Seville-Osuna-Bobadilla-Malaga trains won´t call at Antequera-Santa Ana station.
And the MD Cordova-Puente Genil-Bobadilla trains have been supressed.

I´m not sure the connections to the AVE will be optimal, but it´s better tan nothing.
No classic train had ever stopped at Antequera-Santa Ana station, despite it being available since the day the HSL Cordova-Antequera Santa Ana (and later Malaga) opened.

It was one of those incredible mysteries of rail in Southern Spain. They´ve spent nearly ten years with the station open and able for classic trains and AVE/Altaria/Avant (HS trains), yet no classic trains did call there till today, only High Speed stopped there, even though it was planned as a hub.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 09:37 PM   #1211
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Are you saying we can now get a high speed train to Antequera, change there and catch a regional train to Granada?
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 10:01 PM   #1212
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Are you saying we can now get a high speed train to Antequera, change there and catch a regional train to Granada?
Yes. Or to Algeciras. I´m not so sure about the wait at Antequera-Santa Ana, though...

Attention!
Antequera-Santa Ana station is a parkway station located 15km away from Antequera.
Antequera station, located in Antequera itself, is another station, not yet served by the HSL (will be in the future though).
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 11:48 PM   #1213
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What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 12:50 AM   #1214
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What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.


Oh, yeeees, yeeeees, we have LOOOOADS of pedestrian crossings in the High Speed Rail stations, and the platforms are 10cm high...



Sixty-eight centimeters.

Suburbanist, honest, sometimes...
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 01:05 AM   #1215
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do we have any recents studies about the social and economic impact of AVE on some cities like Valencia or Malaga ? has AVE reduced the impact of crisis in theses cities by bringing more passengers? more businessmen? or by boosting the area around the AVE Central Station of the city ?
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 01:29 AM   #1216
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Now that the European Union has lectured Spain and forced it to divert construction funds to the Mediterranean corridor, other projects will receive less funds and so there will be more delays.
Alright, in my opinion one of the main problems of HSL planning in Spain is that the government decided to start building lots of HSL at the same time, as a way of trying to get votes all around the country. The result now is that there are a lot of lines where the platform is ready but there are no tracks since only some disconnected stretches have been built. You can find examples in Almería - Murcia, Sevila - Antequera, Antequera - Granada, Tarragona - Vandellós, Bilbao - Vitoria and so on. The current lack of funding implies that the government will give priority to lines which are in a more advanced degree of completion, such as Tarragona - Vandellós, and others, for instance Zamora - Ourense, which are still in an earlier stage of construction, will receive less funds. I find this decision wise, and I hope no more HSL will be started before the ones currently under construction are completed.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The good news is that hopefully within a reasonable time frame the missing link of the Tarragona-Valencia double tracked upgrade will finally open. The bad new is that other projects that are close to finished will receive less funds and naturally be delayed.
Good news, it seems in 2015 we will see this line opening.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Santiago-Vigo was supposed to open already 2012, but a multiyear delay is "normal" in Spain when it comes to railways. For example Madrid-Barcelona delayed 6 years, Barcelona-Figueras delayed 8 years, etc.
But now the construction pace is going pretty well, I don't think they're spending so much money in the construction of Vigo station to leave it unopened for a couple of years. I'm sure their intention is to open it next year, despite what you say about the Mediterranean Corridor. Zamora - Ourense (line connecting Madrid to Galicia) will have a significant delay, but that doesn't mean that Santiago - Vigo will suffer it too. The completion of the Atlantic HSL (A Coruña - Santiago - Vigo - Portugal) is really necessary to improve the quality of regional services in Galicia, as it connects the 2 main cities and the capital of the region.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 05:26 AM   #1217
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do we have any recents studies about the social and economic impact of AVE on some cities like Valencia or Malaga ? has AVE reduced the impact of crisis in theses cities by bringing more passengers?
It has brought more passengers by train, that´s certain.
However, I can´t say if there is a big number of new passengers, since many are ex-car or ex-plane passengers, and I can´t speak for Malaga nor Valencia.
Besides, it´s been only four months since Renfe started the new fare system.
It has improved the number of train passengers, but we´d better wait till next year to have a full picture.

I can speak for Tarragona though. Here we have a parkway AVE station, 8km outside Tarragona city.

We have seen a bit more tourists from areas that were far away in travel time, however, most national tourists still use the car. As for international tourists, I´m afraid that only Barcelona is connected to France by High-speed rail, and the connection is not working at full pelt yet, so the impact is limited.

As for the impact of the crisis... I don´t know, the crisis is big, and precisely Malaga and Valencia are two of the provinces among the most affected by the construction bubble, so...

Maybe the cases in which the AVE has had a stronger effect are Ciudad Real, Cordova and Seville. That´s where it is more obvious, since they were cities badly connected to Madrid, and since 1992 thay have an excellent AVE service. Seville has improved, Cordova a little less, and Ciudad Real has become a commuter city (for Madrid).

Quote:
more businessmen?
I´ve seen a few more tourists here in Tarragona (but now there´s less national tourists because of the crisis).
But I can´t speak for businessmen, maybe, but not a very high number.

Quote:
or by boosting the area around the AVE Central Station of the city ?
In the case of Valencia, that´s not possible, since Valencia station is in the very core of the city.

The Spanish case might be a bit different tan in other countries, since it is probably the most car-oriented country in Western Europe.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 02:23 PM   #1218
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I think you need a map.

There are too many kilometers beetween Madrid and Alicante to do that in 1:30.
Alicante Madrid by car only using highways 421 km, that´s less then 1,5 hours with a speed of 300km/h.

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I think... that you need a map too.

Red is the staight line, red the route which is more or less the one from today, and then the Cuenca route...

Make a line between Madrid and Alicante, and you'll see that it passes near Cuenca. The distance between Cuenca and the straight line is more o less (maybe less) than the distance from that straight line to Alcazar de San Juan.
[IMG]http://i43.************/9h5j7b.jpg[/IMG]

Yeah it clearly goes passed Cuenca... Try to follow the A-31 to Madrid a little bit, because this, more or less, is a logical route to Madrid from Alicante. Keeping in mind mountains and stuff. The route via Cuenca is pureley a political one as it makes no sence at all, specialy keeping in minde the metropool Cuenca is... (about 60 000 people)
The ´traditional´route from Alicante to Madrid never went passed Cuenca has nothing to do with it. Politics and if you know a bit about this project then you know I am right. (PP Alicante- PSOE - Cuenca at the time of desicion making)
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 05:11 PM   #1219
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[QUOTE=437.001;103881844]No classic train had ever stopped at Antequera-Santa Ana station, despite it being available since the day the HSL Cordova-Antequera Santa Ana (and later Malaga) opened.[QUOTE]

There were some Granada-Antequera Santa Ana regional shuttle trains on holidays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityDreamer View Post
Are you saying we can now get a high speed train to Antequera, change there and catch a regional train to Granada?
They are uploading it to the sales system now. Waiting times from 10 to 40 minutes. As the gauge changing process requires like 30 minutes, the option is faster than the direct trains. Best time Granada-Madrid is 3h55m, while last week was 4h25m.

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Originally Posted by skaP187 View Post
Alicante Madrid by car only using highways 421 km, that´s less then 1,5 hours with a speed of 300km/h.
A train doesn't get 300 km/h instantly and brakes from 300 to 0 in 20 meters. There isn't any high speed line in Europe that makes 421 km in 1'5 hours. The average speed of a current HSL is near 220 km/h. Wich makes 2 hours for Alicante-Madrid witout stops.

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Yeah it clearly goes passed Cuenca... Try to follow the A-31 to Madrid a little bit, because this, more or less, is a logical route to Madrid from Alicante.
Who dedices wich is the logical route, you? A highway is cheaper that a HSL, so it is logical to make one direct highway for any city while it is logical to join the rail lines in the minium number of corridors passing the maximun number of cities possible.

Also look at the map that you drew, you part from Albacete (wich let Cuenca further), wich isn't exactly at the straight line, why would you pass via Albacete if it is not exactly at the direct line? Isn't it a tragedy too?
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 05:43 PM   #1220
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No classic train had ever stopped at Antequera-Santa Ana station, despite it being available since the day the HSL Cordova-Antequera Santa Ana (and later Malaga) opened.
There were some Granada-Antequera Santa Ana regional shuttle trains on holidays.
Thank you, I didn´t know about that.

Anyway, I meant daily service.

Quote:
They are uploading it to the sales system now. Waiting times from 10 to 40 minutes. As the gauge changing process requires like 30 minutes, the option is faster than the direct trains. Best time Granada-Madrid is 3h55m, while last week was 4h25m.
Interesting...
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