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Old June 4th, 2013, 02:53 AM   #1221
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.
Suburbanist,

Italy also has low height platforms to the extent that, during the refurbishment of Milan Central Station they forgot to raise the height of the platfroms even in one of busiest railways station in Italy.

Furthermore NTV, after having obtained the paths for this summer AGV Milan-Bologna Rimini - Ancona AGV service, had to postpone it to next year , because RFI has not yet raised the height of the platforms in Rimini Station.

In the last 20 years Italy has built about 770 km of so called High speed/High capacity lines (AV/AC lines)at a cost of around 40 billion euro (including the Bologna slow speed underpass, etc. Also they have already spent another 35 -40 billion euro in the Railway station refurbishment (Operaration Grandi Stazioni Spa) with very little result.

With the same amount of money, or less, Spain and France have built in excess of 4500 km of true HSLs and, in many cases, upgraded historic main Lines (whilst some historic main lines have been downgraded in Italy) and these two countries have also purchased in excess of 700 HSTs (against the 118 -120 HSTs purchased by Trenitalia)..

And after having spent in the region of 40 billion euros to refurbish the Italian Railway stations only in a handful of them the platform heights were raised.

Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height.

If I were you I would worry about Home.......
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Old June 4th, 2013, 03:50 AM   #1222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height.

If I were you I would worry about Home.......
Joseph, Suburbanist was asking about Spain, not Macaroniland, which is OT here. He himself knows the predicament Italian railways are in, that's why he came to do the nitpicking in the Spanish section.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 04:05 AM   #1223
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Like I said, all High Speed stations have a platform height of 68cm. No level crossings, needless to say.

Same goes for most of the classic line stations (albeit not all of them).
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Old June 4th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #1224
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Quote:
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A train doesn't get 300 km/h instantly and brakes from 300 to 0 in 20 meters. There isn't any high speed line in Europe that makes 421 km in 1'5 hours. The average speed of a current HSL is near 220 km/h. Wich makes 2 hours for Alicante-Madrid witout stops.
Then they shouldn´t promise 1,5 hours should they? (to be hounest I thought they promised 1 hour and 45 minutes)

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Who dedices wich is the logical route, you?
Maybe they should have asked me, but strangly it are the politicians who decide and you know what has happened to this country.

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A highway is cheaper that a HSL, so it is logical to make one direct highway for any city while it is logical to join the rail lines in the minium number of corridors passing the maximun number of cities possible.
Bigger cities yes, but less then 100 000 is a joke, because as you say, it´s very expensive to build a HSL. Or do you think they should make a stop in Elda, Sax and Monforte too?


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Also look at the map that you drew, you part from Albacete (wich let Cuenca further), wich isn't exactly at the straight line, why would you pass via Albacete if it is not exactly at the direct line? Isn't it a tragedy too?
Because Albacete has the tripple amount of inhabitants as Cuenca maybe? The route from Alicante to Madrid never had anything to do with Cuenca.
Albacete does. It has always been the splitting point from Madrid to Alicante of Murcia
I am not taking about tragedies, nobody died, but it just doesn´t make sence to me. Maybe you are from Cuenca and you´re pissed of, but that´s not my intention.
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Old June 4th, 2013, 04:06 PM   #1225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.
The platforms in ADIF's High Speed network follow the rules stablished by the Commission Decision 2008/164/CE concerning accessibility and interoperability: Either 550 mm or 760 mm above the running surface.

According to this:

http://www.adif.es/en_US/conoceradif...n_Completo.pdf (Section 3.6.5)


A platorm height of 550mm is used for conventional lines, whereas 760mm is used for high speed lines.

In some cases, a height of 680 mm is used for plaforms used for suburban or regional only traffic
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Old June 4th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Suburbanist,

Italy also has low height platforms to the extent that, during the refurbishment of Milan Central Station they forgot to raise the height of the platfroms even in one of busiest railways station in Italy.

Furthermore NTV, after having obtained the paths for this summer AGV Milan-Bologna Rimini - Ancona AGV service, had to postpone it to next year , because RFI has not yet raised the height of the platforms in Rimini Station.

In the last 20 years Italy has built about 770 km of so called High speed/High capacity lines (AV/AC lines)at a cost of around 40 billion euro (including the Bologna slow speed underpass, etc. Also they have already spent another 35 -40 billion euro in the Railway station refurbishment (Operaration Grandi Stazioni Spa) with very little result.

With the same amount of money, or less, Spain and France have built in excess of 4500 km of true HSLs and, in many cases, upgraded historic main Lines (whilst some historic main lines have been downgraded in Italy) and these two countries have also purchased in excess of 700 HSTs (against the 118 -120 HSTs purchased by Trenitalia)..

And after having spent in the region of 40 billion euros to refurbish the Italian Railway stations only in a handful of them the platform heights were raised.

Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height.

If I were you I would worry about Home.......
The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 01:48 AM   #1227
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The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.
"Being done"? Well... done, not yet!
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Old June 5th, 2013, 01:57 AM   #1228
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Nor started
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Old June 5th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Joseph, Suburbanist was asking about Spain, not Macaroniland, which is OT here. He himself knows the predicament Italian railways are in, that's why he came to do the nitpicking in the Spanish section.
Peloso,

I know......
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Old June 5th, 2013, 03:45 AM   #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.
OT:
Two possible mistakes made by the Spaniards do not justistify the many mistakes made by the Italians im costructing a few short stretches of HSLs ,at an astronomical cost.

For the Bologna and Florence underpasses we are talking of about 5 billion euros (without including the cost of Bologna Isozaki AV station and Foster Florence AV station).

So far, on the Milan- Roma line , the main Italian HSLs and for which the cost of a HSLs could be justified the cost of Milano -Bologna and of the Bologna Florence HSLS was in excess of 14,8 billion euro (for less than 300 km/s of HSLs + and to this cost youmust also add the cost of Bologna and Florence mini-underpasses).



To cover the length of the Bologna underpass (17,8) km) it takes about 8 minutes, at an avergae speed of 132 km/h, and for the Florence underpass it will take 7-8 minutes to cover a distance of just 7 kms.

Estimated cost so far = 4 billion euros.

For the same cost, France and Spain have built much more HSLs.

Undoubtely in bulding an HSLs network some mistake can be made but, so far, the Italian are excelling in this "game".

END OF OT.

Last edited by joseph1951; June 5th, 2013 at 03:51 AM.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #1231
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Thanks for info nevertheless.....


It is maybe the reason why the line to Asturias is going to end just after the tunnel. Maybe in the future will be enlarged but not now. A high cost for a low saving time.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #1232
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The new HSL between Albacete and Alicante will open on June the 18th.

Tickets available from June the 10th at www.renfe.com, and at stations and travel agencies.

Best travel time from Madrid to Alicante cut to 2h20min. The top speed between Albacete and Alicante will be 200km/h.
This travel time will be cut even more when they finish testing the ETCS level 2 and the top speed will be raised to 300km/h.

AVEs Madrid-Alicante might call at Cuenca, Albacete, and Villena, although there´s word that not all will call at all stations.

The Alvia services Alicante-Santander, Alicante-Gijon and the weekend Alvia service Alicante-Corunna/Pontevedra will stay as Alvia.

Official Ministry announcement (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/D...EaAlicante.pdf
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Old June 7th, 2013, 01:08 AM   #1233
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Probably a 2 h or a fraction more eventually. No reason to complain at all even if the route doesn't go on the straightest imaginable line. One would need a personal airplane to beat this service time wise.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #1234
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I've done a quick search on the LAV Albacete - Alicante and notice that it's equipped with two safety systems: the Spanish ASFA-200, and ERTMS Level 2. Is there any reason to install two safety systems, now that ERTMS L2 has matured?
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Old June 7th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #1235
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I've done a quick search on the LAV Albacete - Alicante and notice that it's equipped with two safety systems: the Spanish ASFA-200, and ERTMS Level 2. Is there any reason to install two safety systems, now that ERTMS L2 has matured?
I guess it must be because if one fails, the other assures the exploitation of the line. But I´m not sure.

ETCS Level 2 hasn´t matured yet on the line.
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Old June 7th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #1236
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I guess it must be because if one fails, the other assures the exploitation of the line. But I´m not sure.

ETCS Level 2 hasn´t matured yet on the line.
Usually when two security systems are installed in parallel on a railway line,
most components are common, it's only the interfaces between trains and
ground that are duplicated. Which means that if one fails, the other one is
probably down too.

Most often, when a system is installed in parallel with ETCS, it's because the
line will be used by rolling stock which does not have ETCS fitted. Sometimes
it's not possible to install it, just because of space constraints, or sometimes
it is not economic to do it given the expected residual life of the stock. See
SNCF for example, with TVM430 installed almost systematically in parallel with
ETCS because most of their TGV stock will never have ETCS fitted in.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 03:35 AM   #1237
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Timetables for the new AVE and Alvia service on the Madrid-Alicante HSL:

http://www.diarioinformacion.com/ele...D-ALICANTE.pdf
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Old June 8th, 2013, 03:48 AM   #1238
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I have a question: why did they build the Sevilla-Madrid line so many years before Madrid-Barcelona, which would have been a far more logical option?
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #1239
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Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 01:00 PM   #1240
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I have a question: why did they build the Sevilla-Madrid line so many years before Madrid-Barcelona, which would have been a far more logical option?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Expo_'92
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