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Old June 8th, 2013, 01:33 PM   #1241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
They will probably extend that later, won't they? Many HSR in Europe began services with a limited number of trains only, like Milano-Torino, and now services have been expanded a lot.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #1242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
You should take into account that, really, Spain is not building an HSL network but a new rail network. The Spanish railway system, after Franco´s time, was decrepit and a complete failure, and it needed a complete change. Therefore, it was decided to change it, but a significant point to that change was the decision to change the gauge from Iberian gauge to European standard one.

Therefore, among some other points, it was also decided to change it to the higher standards possible, i.e., to convert the passenger rail network to high speed whenever possible. You are now observing the change of the Spanish passenger rail network, from the old times to the new ones; the freight network will follow, and in the mean time some lines will share Iberian and European gauges (i.e., the Mediterranean corridor).

However, economical times have implied something like a halt to many new lines so the change will be slow for the next years; at the same time and for the same reasons, the amount of passenger traffic numbers have decreased a lot. However, eleven services a day per direction for a city like Alicante I think is a reasonable one. Think also that in the next future most passengers which used the plane to go to Madrid they will use the train now. There is also the possibility to go from Alicante to Sevilla/Málaga or even Zaragoza using the HSL, apart from the existing northern connections, so in the future, when the economical situation, hopefully, could be resolved, the numbers surely will increase.

Regards.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #1243
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I wrote a very big message and my laptop erased it . Here we go again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I've done a quick search on the LAV Albacete - Alicante and notice that it's equipped with two safety systems: the Spanish ASFA-200, and ERTMS Level 2. Is there any reason to install two safety systems, now that ERTMS L2 has matured?
I have compained a lot about that but seems that nobody cares . It's not only that there are two system, it's that two of them are mandatory for the rolling sotck, even when ASFA is going to be on stand-by all the time in regular conditions. It means that a French train, that after 1'5 centurys have the same gauge, electrification a signalisation system that Spanish one's, must mave ASFA to entry Spain althought it will be off when running daily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Usually when two security systems are installed in parallel on a railway line,
most components are common, it's only the interfaces between trains and
ground that are duplicated. Which means that if one fails, the other one is
probably down too.
ASFA is a very rudimentary system, mostly independent of the ETCS because it structure is very much simpler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Most often, when a system is installed in parallel with ETCS, it's because the
line will be used by rolling stock which does not have ETCS fitted.
ASFA doesn't allow more than 200 km/h, so there won't be commercial trains on the HSL running under ASFA. It is only for if ERTMS fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question: why did they build the Sevilla-Madrid line so many years before Madrid-Barcelona, which would have been a far more logical option?
I wrote you a long explanation wich was erased.

Short explanation: That line was being built before the Spanish goverment tool the decision of making a HSR network. When the decision was made, they changed the project of the line that was being built at that time to high speed parameters. The line started as a second main access to Andalusia, because the first one was saturated and coudn't be doubled. That acces was Cordoba-Ciudad Real, with a refurbishement of the Madrid-Ciudad Real track. The changes of the project, specially the standar gauge selection, involved that:

- The Madrid-Ciudad Real line was closed to iberian gauge traffic
- A new access to Madrid had to be made, because the access of the Madrid-Ciudad Real line shared tracks with other iberian gauge lines.
- The line was enlarged to Sevilla, as in that time it didn't existed gauge change for high speed trains
- The line was converted then in a Sevilla-Madrid shuttle service, it cannot be used as a new acces for the other cities of Andalusia as it was needed iberian gauge for continue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
The line have a common stretch with the Valencia HSL. In a not so long future it will be used for the trains to Murcia, and Almeria someday. And part of the line will recibe the Alicante-Valencia traffic. 11 frecuencies are for the Madrid-Alicante, but they will be only a part of the frecuencies of the line.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 03:46 PM   #1244
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Any of you know the exact length of Spanish standard gauge network after the opening of Albacete-Alicante section? I think it's already longer than the one in Japan or very close to it.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #1245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question: why did they build the Sevilla-Madrid line so many years before Madrid-Barcelona, which would have been a far more logical option?
Yes it should... but the real history is another one.

In the 80ish, access to Andalusia were collapsed. 25% of population within the Spanish continental territory and almost only one track crossing a complicated part (Despeñaperros, have a look in the road thread to its refurbishement). Except several kilometres all Andalusian railways were single tracks.

The plan was this one:
- double track Manzanares-Puertollano (Brazatortas indeed) with catenary Ciudad Real-Puertollano
- HSL Puertollano-Cordoba (only this side was considered to be HSL with Iberian gauge)
- double track Cordova-Seville

In 1992 an universal exhibition was to be made in Seville and entering Spain in the UE it was requested to have international gauge at some other time.

The first decission was only HSL Puertollano-Cordova (and it is the stretch were trains go only at 250 more or less because it was the firs one designed). The second decission was to have a full international gauge HSL Madrid-Seville.

The line was opened and there were not exact plans for more lines. They were talking about HSL to Barcelona. I remember some news... but they took some time to start works.

After this line started to be built, a full plan was made. This is... we know which line will be the next one to be opened and which are under construction or on project... as well as if they are very delayed.


This was the reason why they started in the south. They just wanted a short HSL line and a full refurbishment for the rest of the line incluiding double track and catenary... and finally they made a full HSL
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Old June 8th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #1246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.


It is expected to have more (Madrid-Lerida started with less and now is the most used one), as well as they will get more sense with corner to corner trains.

Anyway, look at Pedrola-Castejón de Ebro in the classic line. They have more long distance trains:


Departing from Barcelona and using a gauge changer at Zaragoza
2 Barcelona-Irun/Bibao (and let's consider twice because they started the service with different services Barcelona-Irun and Barcelona-Bilbao)
1 Barcelona-Valladolid
1 Barcelona-Pamplona
1 Barcelona-Gijón
1 Barcelona-La Coruña/Vigo (one day out of two arrives to any of these cities)

and one hotel-train Barcelona-La Coruña/Vigo

Departing from Madrid and using a gauge changer at Plasencia de Jalón
4 Madrid-Pamplona
1 Madrid-Logroño


Suppossing trains could arrive just until Castejón de Ebro by HSL saving about 20 minutes, be sure that number of trains will be enlarged.



This stretch and the Mediterranean one are those with more long distance trains in classic lines
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Old June 8th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #1247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
Short answer, not i million years, even 40-50 trains per day is on the extreme low end. I think a HSL should have a minimum of 80-100 trains per day to make sense. Anyway this railway will also support several other routes. RENFE though is completely useless in utilizing the potential of rail corridors, still today after 5 years Madrid-Barcelona is extremely underused, it should have at a very minimum a train every 15 minutes between 06:00 and 22:00.

Compared to Paris-Lyon even before the extensions south of Lyon, Madrid-Barcelona is a farce of management and it will only improve when RENFE is forced to compete on an open market.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #1248
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very good and informative post!thanks to for sharing the pics of train.Well the distance between Madrid and Barcelona is about 750 km.The railway track of Spain is excellent it is popular and famous train all over the world.the train track is totally stripped.I have been traveling in this train. Have a lot of fun in this train.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #1249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.
This is only the second phase on the Madrid-Levante HSL.

The third phase will be from La Encina Junction to Xativa and Valencia, cutting the travel time between Valencia and Alicante in half (from 2h to 1h approx).

Then, the Euromed trains (Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante) will become Alvia and will start using the HSL, and probably some Alvia Madrid-Valencia-Barcelona via Albacete.

Later, the fourth phase will be Monforte del Cid Junction to Murcia.

And much later, the fifth phase will be Murcia to Lorca and Almeria.

Traffic will increase accordingly as the new stretches will open, and the ETCS-Level 2 is fully operational.
This new phases (2 to 5) of the Madrid-Levante HSL are not just radial.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:20 PM   #1250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jovibo View Post
You should take into account that, really, Spain is not building an HSL network but a new rail network.
Whilst keeping the old one? No, they´re building a new high-speed rail network.

Quote:
The Spanish railway system, after Franco´s time, was decrepit and a complete failure,
It wasn´t as developed as in other countries, that is true.
Being considerably more montainous that most European countries, it´s not that strange it wasn´t very developed... just Switzerland is more montainous than Spain.

Quote:
and it needed a complete change.
No it didn´t, if by that you imply that only the HSR network should have/could replace the classic one.

Quote:
Therefore, it was decided to change it, but a significant point to that change was the decision to change the gauge from Iberian gauge to European standard one.
That decision has barely been implemented, if you take the HSR network aside.

Quote:
Therefore, among some other points, it was also decided to change it to the higher standards possible, i.e., to convert the passenger rail network to high speed whenever possible. You are now observing the change of the Spanish passenger rail network, from the old times to the new ones; the freight network will follow, and in the mean time some lines will share Iberian and European gauges (i.e., the Mediterranean corridor).
That is yet to be seen.

Quote:
However, economical times have implied something like a halt to many new lines so the change will be slow for the next years;
What do you mean by "slow"? There is another stretch of this HSL with rails installed and a new station half-finished waiting its turn.

Quote:
at the same time and for the same reasons, the amount of passenger traffic numbers have decreased a lot.
No they bloody haven´t!!! They´ve increased and keep increasing, in particular since the start of the new fare system!!

Quote:
However, eleven services a day per direction for a city like Alicante I think is a reasonable one.
That´s a starter. As soon as the ETCS-2 will be fully available, we´ll see a cut in travel time, with the according growth in ridership. Alicante is the fourth most populated province in Spain, after Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia and before Seville. So here´s what you can expect, with the addition that the Alicante province is much more touristic than the Seville province.

Quote:
Think also that in the next future most passengers which used the plane to go to Madrid they will use the train now. There is also the possibility to go from Alicante to Sevilla/Málaga or even Zaragoza using the HSL, apart from the existing northern connections, so in the future, when the economical situation, hopefully, could be resolved, the numbers surely will increase.

Regards.
Ah yes, I forgot to tell, there´s talk of a new AVE Alicante-Huesca for July, by the fusion of two AVE services Madrid-Huesca and Alicante-Madrid.
Tickets are being sold for Alicante-Seville/Malaga, some with connection at Cuenca station, others at Madrid-Atocha station.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #1251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
Short explanation: That line was being built before the Spanish goverment tool the decision of making a HSR network. When the decision was made, they changed the project of the line that was being built at that time to high speed parameters.
Correct.

Quote:
The line started as a second main access to Andalusia, because the first one was saturated and coudn't be doubled. That acces was Cordoba-Ciudad Real, with a refurbishement of the Madrid-Ciudad Real track.
The underlined part is not correct.
It could have been and still can be double-tracked, and has been double-tracked between Linares-Baeza and Vadollano.

The only part that would be difficult to double-track would be Vilches-Venta de Cárdenas.

But Lora del Rio-Cordova can be double-tracked, as can Cordova-Vadollano and Venta de Cárdenas-Santa Cruz de Mudela. It is perfectly feasible, like always.
But they went for the new line (which later would become the HSL) because thus they were more competitive than by car/bus.

Quote:
The changes of the project, specially the standar gauge selection, involved that:

- The Madrid-Ciudad Real line was closed to iberian gauge traffic
- A new access to Madrid had to be made, because the access of the Madrid-Ciudad Real line shared tracks with other iberian gauge lines.
- The line was enlarged to Sevilla, as in that time it didn't existed gauge change for high speed trains
- The line was converted then in a Sevilla-Madrid shuttle service, it cannot be used as a new acces for the other cities of Andalusia as it was needed iberian gauge for continue
Correct.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #1252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Any of you know the exact length of Spanish standard gauge network after the opening of Albacete-Alicante section? I think it's already longer than the one in Japan or very close to it.
Had Japan surpassed us?
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Old June 8th, 2013, 11:12 PM   #1253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The plan was this one:
- double track Manzanares-Puertollano (Brazatortas indeed) with catenary Ciudad Real-Puertollano
- HSL Puertollano-Cordoba (only this side was considered to be HSL with Iberian gauge)
- double track Cordova-Seville
The underlined part is not correct.
Only La Nava de Puertollano-Brazatortas was to be electrified, since Manzanares-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-La Nava de Puertollano had been electrified years before.

Quote:
The line was opened and there were not exact plans for more lines. They were talking about HSL to Barcelona. I remember some news... but they took some time to start works.
In fact, the first plans of a HSL were for the Barcelona-Perpignan HSL... by the Catalan regional government.
This is why the Barcelona-Figueres HSL isn´t well-adapted for 300km/h in many places.
But it hasn´t been completely opened till early this year because the plans and the project were shelved for many years.
But the lands that the Catalan regional government had bought, and also the project, were finally used for the construction of Barcelona-Perpignan, albeit with a few modifications.

Then came the Puertollano-Cordova new line project, which later became the Madrid-Seville HSL, which went on to become the first to be built.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 11:14 PM   #1254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Had Japan surpassed us?
I'm not sure, that's why I asked. The length of both systems is quite similar and as far as surpassing it's the Spanish system which might have surpassed the Japanese one as the latter is of course much older.

Unlike in Spain there haven't been major additions there recently, but there will be in the next 2-3 years (parts of Hokuriku and Hokkaido Shinkansen for a total of about 360 km).
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Old June 8th, 2013, 11:30 PM   #1255
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Short answer, not i million years, even 40-50 trains per day is on the extreme low end. I think a HSL should have a minimum of 80-100 trains per day to make sense. Anyway this railway will also support several other routes. RENFE though is completely useless in utilizing the potential of rail corridors, still today after 5 years Madrid-Barcelona is extremely underused, it should have at a very minimum a train every 15 minutes between 06:00 and 22:00.

Compared to Paris-Lyon even before the extensions south of Lyon, Madrid-Barcelona is a farce of management and it will only improve when RENFE is forced to compete on an open market.
There is just one detail that helps making this network.

Country ground in Spain is rather, rather cheaper than in other country in Europe.

I remember one picture of a Spanish motorway that was 2x2 and prepared to be 3x3 in the future. Someone said that image wouldn't be seen in other European country because country ground was very expensive (so much that some times ground costs can be more important than the whole infrastructure). In other countries they would use the minimal space for the infrastructure and, should they have to enlarge in the future, they will think how.

But in Spain, city ground is as much expensive (you can find differences but not specially high) but country ground (where almost all the line runs) is barely free considering the whole budget.

We are seeing new bridges, tracks, platforms and tunnels... but we are not seeing that those infrastructures are linked by lines built in the middle of nowhere... and the cost of a ground in nowhere is rather cheaper.


That is the only reason why Spain can build an important HSL network (and an important motorway network too).

Otherwise, be sure just some lines, or part of them had been built....
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Old June 9th, 2013, 12:29 AM   #1256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
The Madrid-Ciudad Real line was closed to iberian gauge traffic
So there was a direct Madrid-Ciudad Real line roughly on the trackbed of the HSL?

I ask because what alserrod wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The plan was this one:
- double track Manzanares-Puertollano (Brazatortas indeed) with catenary Ciudad Real-Puertollano
Makes me think such direct line never existed (and I suppose the one via Alcázar de San Juan-Manzanares never closed).
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Old June 9th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
So there was a direct Madrid-Ciudad Real line roughly on the trackbed of the HSL?
Yes. You can still see bits of it, if you have a good eye, on the travel between Madrid (more precisely Parla) and Ciudad Real.

That was the original line Madrid-Parla-Villaseca Mocejón-Algodor-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Almorchón-Villanueva de la Serena-Mérida-Badajoz.
The underlined sections are the ones that closed for the construction the HSL.

The section between Madrid and Parla is still in use as the southern part of line C4 of the Cercanías Renfe Madrid network of commuter train services.
The section between Algodor and Villaseca-Mocejón is still in use as an access to La Sagra depot, and I don´t know if also as a way of connecting to Villaluenga-Yuncler station on the Madrid-Talavera-Cáceres-Valencia de Alcántara line (is the Villaseca-Villaluenga line still open for freight? ).
The rest of the line is in service between Ciudad Real and Badajoz.

Quote:
I ask because what alserrod wrote:
I´m afraid alserrod doesn´t speak much English at all. Google translate. I sometimes don´t understand what he writes at all.

Quote:
Makes me think such direct line never existed
Which direct line are you talking about, exactly?

Quote:
(and I suppose the one via Alcázar de San Juan-Manzanares never closed).
It´s still in use. Take a look at Thorsten Büker´s map.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #1258
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Alsserrod wrote:

Quote:
The plan was this one:
- double track Manzanares-Puertollano (Brazatortas indeed) with catenary Ciudad Real-Puertollano
- HSL Puertollano-Cordoba (only this side was considered to be HSL with Iberian gauge)
- double track Cordova-Seville
So I thought there was no Parla-Ciudad Real line and that in the NAFA (Nuevo Aceso a Andalucia) project trains to Andalucia would go via Alcázar.

But the existence of a Parla-Ciudad Real line (what I call "direct") explains why the old Parla station is not a terminus:

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Parla,...pagna&t=k&z=19
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Old June 9th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #1259
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You have the answer right on the message before yours, I´ve edited.

Actually, if you follow closely the HSL on Google Maps, you can get to see bits of the old line (if you have a good eye).
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #1260
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There is actually an unused, unfinished part of the Madrid-Seville HSL, from a time (an intermediate stage) at which it had been decided it would be a complete HSL from Madrid to Seville (instead of a new line between Brazatortas and Cordova), but still in Iberian gauge.

The switching from Iberian to standard gauge forced the government to build the definitive stretch between Getafe and Madrid-Atocha.

Bits of those unused works can be seen at Getafe just after passing on the AVE on top of the C3 Cercanías line, between Getafe Industrial and Pinto stations.
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