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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #1261
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Regarding the alignment of the new Alicante line discussed here earlier, some smaller towns do get "luckier" than others. Cuenca has 12 fast trains a day to Madrid (+3 very slow ones) and the number is probably set to increase with the new line. It is indeed a very convenient day trip from Madrid now. I assume there was a massive increase of visitors from the days before Valencia line was opened.

That is assuming that one doesn't have to walk those 5 km from the new station to city centre
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:16 AM   #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Alsserrod wrote:



So I thought there was no Parla-Ciudad Real line and that in the NAFA (Nuevo Aceso a Andalucia) project trains to Andalucia would go via Alcázar.

But the existence of a Parla-Ciudad Real line (what I call "direct") explains why the old Parla station is not a terminus:

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Parla,...pagna&t=k&z=19


There was a former and very old line (I do not know if Iberian gauge, somewhere there should be a thread about it) Madrid-Ciudad Real. If you go via HSL you will see several points close to former line where it is clear that was the platform for it.

The first project was to keep the Madrid-Manzanares (electrified, double track), make a second track Manzanares-Ciudad Real (keeps with only one track but electrified), make and electrify the second track Ciudad Real-Puertollano (remains not electrified), HSL in Iberian gauge Puertollano-Cordova and finally double track to Seville.


There are several details about how project was changed:

- Between Cordova and Seville there is a curve in the middle of nowhere. This is because one company made a stretch 10 m away of the classic line (parallel) and another one 13 m away. They had to join that 3 m separation.

- The HSL passes very near Toledo but non stop. You can see some monuments of Toledo from the train. Nowadays it will not be understand to cross so near without a stop.
In 2005 a branch was made so there are trains Madrid-Toledo (but not Toledo-Ciudad Real or so on...)


We could talk about the line to Barcelona because, as far as the first project was to make a HSL in Iberian gauge between Puertollano (Brazatortas indeed) and Cordova, in the case of Barcelona it was expected to have two little stretches only at first.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:42 AM   #1263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Regarding the alignment of the new Alicante line discussed here earlier, some smaller towns do get "luckier" than others. Cuenca has 12 fast trains a day to Madrid (+3 very slow ones) and the number is probably set to increase with the new line.
It will increase even more over the years, be sure about that.
Cuenca is a smaller town, but it´s also a head of province.

Quote:
It is indeed a very convenient day trip from Madrid now.
It is, indeed.
It´s one of the most beautiful Spanish cities.

Quote:
I assume there was a massive increase of visitors from the days before Valencia line was opened.
I´m not sure, but definitely, having Cuenca easily connected to Alicante is a win-win situation, since the old town in Cuenca is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Quote:
That is assuming that one doesn't have to walk those 5 km from the new station to city centre
There´s a city bus service.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #1264
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I´m not sure, but definitely, having Cuenca easily connected to Alicante is a win-win situation, since the old town in Cuenca is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
No doubt some positive effect from Alicante connection as well, but I think the main benefit was already realised when Valencia line opened few years ago. Big difference in motivation between 2 h bus ride vs 50 min by train.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 02:35 AM   #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Whilst keeping the old one? No, they´re building a new high-speed rail network.
In fact it's supposed that in the future, the core network will be the HSN while the old one will be transformed into a kind of local network assisting that core network and making the model more similar to the french one (trains leaving the HSL into conventional lines for some services).

Summarizing... probably the future network will look like this:

The HSN will be a core network for long distance routes
The old network will be used for freight and local and medium distance services with some HST detouring to stations into these old lines meshing the HSN.

PS. AFAIK the Villaluenga-Yuncler - Algodor line is still open for freight... but in very poor conditions.

Last edited by OriK; June 9th, 2013 at 02:41 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 03:06 AM   #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
No doubt some positive effect from Alicante connection as well, but I think the main benefit was already realised when Valencia line opened few years ago. Big difference in motivation between 2 h bus ride vs 50 min by train.
Well, that´s obvious, but Alicante can produce some passengers to Cuenca for a day trip off the beach, or even a weekend, coming from places like Exeter, Glasgow, Cork, Moscow, Rotterdam or Stuttgart, to name but a few places. And Cuenca has definitely substance enough to justify that trip.
That, Valencia can too, but not as much as Alicante.

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Originally Posted by OriK View Post
In fact it's supposed that in the future, the core network will be the HSN while the old one will be transformed into a kind of local network assisting that core network and making the model more similar to the french one (trains leaving the HSL into conventional lines for some services).
But that happens already, and it´s called Alvia.

Quote:
PS. AFAIK the Villaluenga-Yuncler - Algodor line is still open for freight... but in very poor conditions.
Thanks for the info!!

I wasn´t sure wether it was still open or not.
It is in very bad state indeed.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 03:57 AM   #1267
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I think this may serve as a confirmation:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/renfelipe_94/8573499779/

And I find this picture particulary interesting... new signal... abandoned station...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6AOjHl2cbz...k/s1600/29.JPG
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Old June 9th, 2013, 11:28 AM   #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
- The HSL passes very near Toledo but non stop. You can see some monuments of Toledo from the train. Nowadays it will not be understand to cross so near without a stop.
In 2005 a branch was made so there are trains Madrid-Toledo (but not Toledo-Ciudad Real or so on...)
But as far I know the planned LAV Extremadura will skip, again, Toledo, building a new junction. So from the Madrid-Andalusia HSL two branches will diverge in a few km: one to Toledo, one to Extremadura.

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Originally Posted by OriK View Post
PS. AFAIK the Villaluenga-Yuncler - Algodor line is still open for freight... but in very poor conditions.
From Google Maps I see that the remaining part of the Algodor-Toledo line is used to store old class 440/470 EMUs. And that the section between Algodor and the Madrid-Alcázar-Andalusia/Valencia line is still electrified. Algodor station itself seems to be used as a base for ADIF maintenance trains.

The old Madrid-Ciudad Real line is this one, I suppose. I could follw it until Mascaraque, then I lost it.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #1269
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I always thought that Alvia trains can only run on electrified routes. Is that wrong?

The reason I was wondering is that according to this map the classical route between Medina del Campo and Ourense is not electrified. So I thought if there are any Alvia trains at all going there from Madrid they must be going trough Leon and Ponferrada, but that is not so there being one daily service via Zamora... Perhaps the map is inaccurate?
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Old June 9th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I always thought that Alvia trains can only run on electrified routes. Is that wrong?

The reason I was wondering is that according to this map the classical route between Medina del Campo and Ourense is not electrified. So I thought if there are any Alvia trains at all going there from Madrid they must be going trough Leon and Ponferrada, but that is not so there being one daily service via Zamora... Perhaps the map is inaccurate?
They developed an hybrid diesel eletrical version of the s 130 from talgo

from jotaerre:
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Ahora no funciona el enlace que puso tivunel y que lleva a un post de mdiaz. En enlace lleva a tranvía.org que está ahora mismo en obras pero lo justo es atribuir la foto a su autor.

Aquí tenemos la foto en ferropedia.es con la identificación del autor al cual agradezco la foto.

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Old June 9th, 2013, 05:48 PM   #1271
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The 730 series is a refurbishment of S130 trains. The car added after the locomotive is a diesel generator that feed the regular electric equipements of the train.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #1272
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The 730 series is a refurbishment of S130 trains. The car added after the locomotive is a diesel generator that feed the regular electric equipements of the train.
So the loco has the possibility to run using either the catenary or the diesel engine, or does it always run on diesel?
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Old June 9th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #1273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
But as far I know the planned LAV Extremadura will skip, again, Toledo, building a new junction. So from the Madrid-Andalusia HSL two branches will diverge in a few km: one to Toledo, one to Extremadura.
That´s correct, at this stage of things.

There´s been much discussion on the Spanish forum about this.
Many forumers believe that the Toledo HSL should have been the start of the Madrid-Extremadura-Lisbon HSL.
Skipping Toledo once again like in the XIXth century would be a grave mistake to many of us.

It would be expensive, true, but it would have a massive touristic impact (Lisbon, Evora, Merida, Caceres, Toledo and Madrid have World Heritage UNESCO sites, and linking six of them all in a row would be an extremely interesting option to increase tourism in the area), as well as general interest (Toledo is the capital of the region of Castile-La Mancha).

Quote:
From Google Maps I see that the remaining part of the Algodor-Toledo line is used to store old class 440/470 EMUs.
Not anymore, they´ve been moved to the inside of La Sagra depot.

Quote:
And that the section between Algodor and the Madrid-Alcázar-Andalusia/Valencia line is still electrified. Algodor station itself seems to be used as a base for ADIF maintenance trains.
Algodor station is now the entrance hall to La Sagra depot, one of the most important in Spain.

Quote:
The old Madrid-Ciudad Real line is this one, I suppose. I could follw it until Mascaraque, then I lost it.
You can follow it further south, but in many places it has been eaten up by the HSL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I always thought that Alvia trains can only run on electrified routes. Is that wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaud View Post
So the loco has the possibility to run using either the catenary or the diesel engine, or does it always run on diesel?
Yes, now there is the hybrid Alvia S-730, which can run under 3kV and 25kV, in electric mode or diesel mode, and on Iberian gauge or standard gauge.

They´re the ones in charge of the Alvia services between Madrid and Corunna/Pontevedra/Ferrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
The reason I was wondering is that according to this map the classical route between Medina del Campo and Ourense is not electrified. So I thought if there are any Alvia trains at all going there from Madrid they must be going trough Leon and Ponferrada, but that is not so there being one daily service via Zamora... Perhaps the map is inaccurate?
No, the map is correct there. The line between Medina del Campo and Ourense isn´t electrified.

The map has inaccuracies though (albeit not that one), that I remarked many months ago to the guys who run the site, but for some reason the site hasn´t been updated for a long time...

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Last edited by 437.001; June 9th, 2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I always thought that Alvia trains can only run on electrified routes. Is that wrong?

The reason I was wondering is that according to this map the classical route between Medina del Campo and Ourense is not electrified. So I thought if there are any Alvia trains at all going there from Madrid they must be going trough Leon and Ponferrada, but that is not so there being one daily service via Zamora... Perhaps the map is inaccurate?
Alvia is not a train but a type of services. Several trains with different facilities or serie number can have the same marketing name.

But for this hybrid train, all had to be electrified.

Briefly, if you look to line Madrid-Valladolid, there are AVE services (full HSL and full UIC gauge) between Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid. But there are Alvia services to Hendaye (France), Vitoria, Bilbao, Santander, Leon, Gijon and Ponferrada as final destination and all of them call at Valladolid.

The difference between Spanish and French network is that in Spain they require a gauge changer (and if I'm not wrong they have a 100 euro fee per train). There are many trains departing from Madrid (or Barcelona) by HSL and they need to change the gauge to go until the corner of the territory.
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Old June 10th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #1275
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But for this hybrid train, all had to be electrified.
.........
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Old June 10th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #1276
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But for this hybrid train ===> If it hadn't been for...
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Old June 10th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #1277
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HeyHo,

nor that the Spanish railway is being built on and on and on I'd like to make a list of all railway lines that are under construction for a future high speed AVE railway.

There are two different kind of works going on at the moment:
- bulding new lines (in wide or standard gauge, but the future will be standard gauge)
- converting and upgrading old lines (eletrification and converting to dual guage, so that AVE can run on them).

Please help me to fill up the list with ALL projects that are currently under construcition (even if it's early construcition):

Albacete - Alcatant (will be opened soon)
Antequera - Granada
Madrid - Badajoz - Portugal
Madrid tunnel (connection between Atocha and Charmatin)
Bobadilla-Granada (will the line terminate there or is there already construction going on direction Almeria?)
Olmedo - Ourense
Vigo - Santiago (will it the the only connection for HSR for Vigo? It's not really the fastest way direction Madrid)

High speed lines already in use but will be converted to standart gauge later:

- Oursense - Santiago - A Coruna (although parts is just upgraded and not really new)
- La Encina - Xativa (now that Albacete-Alacant will open, will it be converted to standard gauge very soon? When will that happen?)

I know that I missed out quite many new railways because I don't know them.
What's with Valencia - Barcelona?
Will it be normal gauge sooner or later too?

It would be really nice if you can help me with additional lines. I know that there are plan for Cadiz or Algericas, but will it be normal gauge (so AVE can use it?) and is it already being built?

What's with the lins coming after Albacete and Alacant? I'm not really sure about the direction railway will go from there (Almeria?)

And what HSR will is currently being built north of Valladolid? I know there are planned brances to Leon, Burgos, Vitoria and even to the French border, but is anthing of the already under construction?

It would be really nice if you can help me with a (more or less) complete list of currently under construction HSL in Spain, even if it's just small parts...

Thanks!
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Old June 10th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #1278
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Hi JumpUp, if you go back 4-5 pages on this thread and keep reading, you will get a lot of the information you are looking for on previous posts They discussed extensively many new projects.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #1279
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Indeed, Spanish posters have been very active here + Wikipedia articles on the subject are quite decent as well (=only moderately outdated).
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Old June 11th, 2013, 07:59 AM   #1280
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Nevertheless, should you need further information about any specific project, just ask for it
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