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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #1501
OriK
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It seems that the speed factor is confirmed, but some people says that there could be additional factors.

Personally I think that althought it's true that those speed limits are too guarantor... the speed of the train was too high beyond the limit to be able to derail the train in this way.

Finally, although it really doesn't matter... could it be considered as a HSR accident? it's a strange situation...
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:46 AM   #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
It seems that the speed factor is confirmed, but some people says that there could be additional factors.

Personally I think that althought it's true that those speed limits are too guarantor... the speed of the train was too high beyond the limit to be able to derail the train in this way.

Finally, although it really doesn't matter... could it be considered as a HSR accident? it's a strange situation...
Well I think this is a HSR accident that happened in an area where high speed trains shouldnīt be running at HSR speeds.

Why was this train running at such high speed in a place where everybody in the staff should be aware that the top speed is 80 km/h, and were they aware of it, and what happened then in case they were aware of it? Thatīs the question.

I hope Iīve been clear enough.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:18 AM   #1503
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If you look carefully to the diagram, this train was pretty close to arrive to Santiago's station. If confirmed the overspeed, it could have been an even bigger tragedy if this train arrives to the station at 220km/h.

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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #1504
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69 dead now... for now.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #1505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
is the speed entirely up to the driver? what happens if a driver gets a heart attack on a HSL? doesn't the train know to slow down before such bends no matter what?
there are dead-man pedals/switches as a last resort

even so, with advanced signaling and safety systems, emergency brakes would deploy automatically.

these systems on strictly HSL sectors are double-safe. anything out of parameters would trigger emergency braking.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:32 AM   #1506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
If you look carefully to the diagram, this train was pretty close to arrive to Santiago's station. If confirmed the overspeed, it could have been an even bigger tragedy if this train arrives to the station at 220km/h.

It couldnīt have entered the station at 220. Itīs impossible.
It would have derailed before suche a thing happened... right at the bend where it did.
The bend where the accident happened was at once the end of the HSL, and the end of the ERTMS/ETCS-1 security system.
And not just that, that bend also has a speed limit of 80 km/h.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:39 AM   #1507
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69 victims...

RIP

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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:22 AM   #1508
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I have question on why the train cannot reduce speed automatically on that curve under ERTMS-level 1 system?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:34 AM   #1509
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So sad. My condolences for the death and lots of strength for the injured.

77 deaths now.
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Last edited by Ribarca; July 25th, 2013 at 08:41 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:41 AM   #1510
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77 dead according to CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/24/wo...in-train-crash
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:50 AM   #1511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honwai1983 View Post
I have question on why the train cannot reduce speed automatically on that curve under ERTMS-level 1 system?
Because this curve came after the ETCS area already ended. However I don't understand why they allowed the train to exit the ETCS area at some higher speed knowing there is a 80 km/h curve coming up. They could have set up ETCS to release trains at a lower speed (like the 80 km/h of the curve), just like you can't exit a LZB area at over 160 km/h in Germany (don't know if Spanish LZB works different in this respect).

Unfortunately this accident also busts another myth: Alstom always claimed that a trainset with jacobs bogies is much less likely to jack knife in accidents and therefor much safer. As this was a Talgo type train, which has a similar setup, and you can see a few photos with jack knived carriages you can see that that only works up to a point.
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Last edited by M-NL; July 25th, 2013 at 08:51 AM. Reason: Added quote
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:15 AM   #1512
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It is a tragedy.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
As this was a Talgo type train, which has a similar setup
Are you sure about that?

I don't think it would have made a difference here. If you have so much energy, something will have to break, and as you can see the force was so large that even one carriage was bent.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:41 AM   #1514
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RIP
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:11 AM   #1515
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I am only afraid that some concerned NGOs will now open the discussion on high speed railway traffic safety and so on, and that some other projects will be affected by it. I believe that after the Eschede disaster in 1998 there were some raised voices that asked for interruption of high speed trains.
This accident, however tragic it is, is not characteristic for high speed railways, which are actually quite safe.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Because this curve came after the ETCS area already ended. However I don't understand why they allowed the train to exit the ETCS area at some higher speed knowing there is a 80 km/h curve coming up. They could have set up ETCS to release trains at a lower speed (like the 80 km/h of the curve), just like you can't exit a LZB area at over 160 km/h in Germany (don't know if Spanish LZB works different in this respect).
It could be that the end of the ETCS protected section has to do with ASFA design limitations (perhaps the system requires an 'activation beacon' to be passed). Limiting the speed to 80 km/h at the end of the ETCS section would cause trains to be delayed too early, lengthening journey times wihtout this being necessary. Also, once ETCS control has been left, the driver can accelerate again as ASFA does not control maximum speeds.

My guess is that the speed limit at the end of the ETCS protected section is set to 200 km/h, which is the maximum speed handled by the ASFA system. A bit further down the track, classic lines (protected by ASFA) merge onto the new track.

While the driver was nearing the end of the ETCS protected section, he should have seen a target speed of 200 km/h on his ETCS display (the Driver-Machine Interface, or DMI). Upon leaving ETCS supervision, the target speed indicator should have disappeared from his DMI as ASFA is not capable of controlling maximum speeds. While under ETCS supervision, the target speed displayed on the DMI is considered to be leading, despite signage outside indicating otherwise.

I'm speculating, but I see it as a possibility that the driver failed to realize that he was no longer under ETCS supervision, and that as such he forgot to look at outside signage to determine the maximum speed permitted.
Quote:
Unfortunately this accident also busts another myth: Alstom always claimed that a trainset with jacobs bogies is much less likely to jack knife in accidents and therefor much safer. As this was a Talgo type train, which has a similar setup, and you can see a few photos with jack knived carriages you can see that that only works up to a point.
A couple of years ago, a TGV derailed near the current TGV Haute-Picardie station at near cruising speed (290 km/h) due to a landslide. Of course, there was quite some damage, but there were no casualties. The damage at Santiage de Compostela, however, is enormous. The locomotive and the first few coaches seem relatively okay, but the ones after that look like they have been catapulted by the wall.

I'm not sure how well the articulated design of Alstom trains can be compared against the design of this Talgo train. There can be quite some differences in the design of the suspension and intercoupling of coaches.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #1517
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This is so unfortunate... if there had been ETCS all the way to Santiago de Compostela station (dual signalled with ASFA for compatability) the entire crash wouldn't have happened.
My dear God! Isn't the logical thinking necessary anymore? In San Francisco the Boeing passenger plane (Asiana) was decelerating too rapidly with too low speed, 3 pilots in charge did nothing to prevent the crash relying totally on the automatics while the system didn't work. In Santiago there were two drivers observing the sharp bend approaching far too rapidly and did... nothing, presumably. If so, why to hell there are still drivers or pilots in the cabins if they are unable to act or even unable to properly assess the situation? You might say it's too early to formulate any decisive opinions or judgments. Well, perhaps it is. But again, if something is going wrong very apparently, you always have the emergency brakes left, don't you? So, aren't the drivers supposed to do anything non-automated anymore?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #1518
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Two drivers? Are you sure?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:23 PM   #1519
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That's terrible. RIP all the death

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Old July 25th, 2013, 12:37 PM   #1520
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