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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:07 PM   #1541
Maarten Otto
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The question is WHY is it allowed to pass the last ERTMS balise at those high speeds? A normal person can imagine tht the last signal on a HSL should protect the speed of a train leaving the HSL. In this case the end of the Movement Authority should allow for speeds not greater then 80 or 100 km/h. Even if trains arriving at 350 km/h pass this balise at high speeds the distance till the end of the line would be sufficient to get the train to stop before this bend.

In Rotterdam the end of the HSL has a 80 km/h bent into the station. ERTMS is forcing the trains to pass at a speed not greater then 60 km/h.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #1542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maadeuurija View Post
is it me, or does it seem that the rear power unit pushed the cars of the track, witch seemed to stay intact for the first seconds...
To me it appears that first power unit alone could even negotiate the turn (which has radius of about 400 m, at Vmax=80 km/h means cant of about 120 mm) however passenger cars are much lighter so they were pushed into the air because of sudden cant increase in the first transition curve. Then they pulled powercars off the track too.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #1543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
The question is WHY is it allowed to pass the last ERTMS balise at those high speeds? A normal person can imagine tht the last signal on a HSL should protect the speed of a train leaving the HSL. In this case the end of the Movement Authority should allow for speeds not greater then 80 or 100 km/h. Even if trains arriving at 350 km/h pass this balise at high speeds the distance till the end of the line would be sufficient to get the train to stop before this bend.

In Rotterdam the end of the HSL has a 80 km/h bent into the station. ERTMS is forcing the trains to pass at a speed not greater then 60 km/h.
You would assume it should have worked the same here.

With a risk analysis this part on the whole track would have stood out like a sore thumb. Therefore it's so incredible to me that it happened right here. The precautions and the focus of the driver should be at its maximum right here you would assume. Accidents normally happen where you don't expect them.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #1544
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I still find it unbelievable driver error being the only cause of this tragedy. Hopefully the investigation gets to the root of this.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #1545
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At least 78 dead in worst Spanish train crash in decades
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News...-decades-.html



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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #1546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I still find it unbelievable driver error being the only cause of this tragedy. Hopefully the investigation gets to the root of this.
That route is set up so that a driver that don't pay attention ALL the time can miss the end of the HSR section of the line. I posted a youtube video of this line a few pages back, you basically come out of a tunnel over a bridge and then suddenly you find yourself in a curve, it is easy to miss if you are distracted by something. It is a design flaw when the driver has next to no time to react before he has to brake.

From min 30 in this video, the derail section is at min 31:40



Then of cause it could be software/hardware error, but I doubt it.

Last edited by gincan; July 25th, 2013 at 05:50 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:42 PM   #1547
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Quote:
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To me it appears that first power unit alone could even negotiate the turn (which has radius of about 400 m, at Vmax=80 km/h means cant of about 120 mm) however passenger cars are much lighter so they were pushed into the air because of sudden cant increase in the first transition curve. Then they pulled powercars off the track too.
I noticed that too.

The power car alone is probably heavy enough to stay on the rails. Incredible.

But because this sharp left is followed by a sharp right instead of a straight, there is an inflection point and my guess is the power car would have derailed right there.

The passenger coaches flew into the air like paper.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #1548
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Shocking accident

I can't believe this video!!
Few weeks agor we were talking on eurostar thread about the security on TGV!
It's just incredible to see that!

I can't believe my eyes
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #1549
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I think the reason for the extra damage of the passenger cars might be releated to the fact, that those trains are hybrid. In the wagon right next to the engine there's a huge and heavy diesel unit. Now, I'm not sure if those trains have 2 diesels or only one, but if the rear engine was diesel-equipped, then it acted as a hammer crushing all the passenger cars on its way.

You can see the diesel which broke itself loose from the engine here - 4th picture from the bottom. Just imagine the momentum of this thing with a velocity of 200 km/h.

Last edited by tompaw; July 25th, 2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 05:56 PM   #1550
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It doesn't matter how heavy or light a vehicle is, centrifugal force and gravitation both scale the same way with the mass.

What matters is the weight distribution. And it seems that the middle cars had a higher (further away from the tracks) center of mass then the powercars.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #1551
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I am not saying that the presence of diesel units had anything to do with the derailment. But I think it might've had lots to do with the damage to the passenger cars.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 06:28 PM   #1552
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here s some ppl they confuse between alvia train (talgo 250) and talgo 350 train

Haramin high speed train
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...710292&page=54
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:05 PM   #1553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
As the driver of the train was calling out in panic just after the rail crash: ¡Somos humanos, somos humanos! (which translates to: we're (only) human). Everywhere where humans are involved, mistakes are bound to be made. Usually, they won't end in disaster like this one, but once in a while we run out of luck and get killed by human error.
Excuse me, but NO. Mistakes are ok, but we're not talking some 10 or even 40 km/h here, we're talking overspeeding by about 100 km/h, which is criminal if you ask me... if the driver did not know where he was and what the speed limit was, then he should have slowed down immediately.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #1554
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Video: the normal speed at which the train should take that section...

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/...56_833539.html


The driver posted at his facebook time ago:

"Im so proud I achieved 200km/h"
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #1555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Excuse me, but NO. Mistakes are ok, but we're not talking some 10 or even 40 km/h here, we're talking overspeeding by about 100 km/h, which is criminal if you ask me... if the driver did not know where he was and what the speed limit was, then he should have slowed down immediately.
I agree, it was not a mistake, this guy is mentally ill.. simply as that! we need to know his profile, his age, etc...

How in the ... you take such a curv at 190km/h??? no matter if the systems failed too.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:25 PM   #1556
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look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!



http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...374751101.html

Francisco Jose Garzon Amo is the criminal!
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #1557
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Spain Train Crash: Driver Francisco José Garzón Amo under Investigation
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #1558
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that doesn't mean anything... 200Km/h is allowed in a lot of stretches...
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:34 PM   #1559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
that doesn't mean anything... 200Km/h is allowed in a lot of stretches...
it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:41 PM   #1560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompaw View Post
I am not saying that the presence of diesel units had anything to do with the derailment. But I think it might've had lots to do with the damage to the passenger cars.
Sorry for the convusion, I wasn't refering to you. There were several post assuming that the "lightness" of some cars have something to do with the delailment. But that isn't true.
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