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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #1561
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Let's not jump to easy conclusiones when there's not clear what happened. A picture on facebook doesn't proof anything in the real world. That speed is allowed in a lot of stretches, we don't know if he was breaking the law..
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Old July 25th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #1562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!



http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...374751101.html

Francisco Jose Garzon Amo is the criminal!
Nowadays the first thing journalists do everytime someone breaks into newspapers headlines is to lurk at his FB profile to get infos on 'em

That way silly conversations and attitudes which are normally publishe on people's wall are emphasized and become extremely serious in journalists eyes.. because, oh well, they're looking for people who read their 'scoops'

But, definitely, it is like lurking at SSC and judge people on the basis of the bs they write on the forum

This post could possibly be considered as an address against the freedom of press if someone looking for 'news' about Genius Loci on the forum will read it.
Instead is about lack of analysis and research of 'instant journalism'
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:00 PM   #1563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.
He is joking at being caught by a speed cam just like I was joking with a friend that measured the speed of a plane with a GPS, and of course flying at 900km/h is not necessary against the law just like driving a train at 200km/h.

The driver could be responsible, but his facebook doesn't prove neither that he is crazy nor that he is an adict to velocity, in fact he says:

"If I go faster I'd get fined".

So it seems pretty clear that he knows that there are limits.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #1564
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The media are trying to find someone to blame, and given the circumstances it looks like the driver has become the target. To me, it appears like he's someone who enjoys his job and likes to share, nothing more.

A while ago, when the Fyra scandal unfolded, the Dutch media published some tweets of a man who was responsible to oversee the building of the Fyra V250 trains in Italy. He tweeted some pictures of his view and of a glass of Italian wine, the media made it into "He was there, having a good time, not doing his job", some even went as far to insinuate that AnsaldoBreda bribed him.

I wouldn't put too much confidence in everything the media publishes about the driver, the situation is bad enough as it is and I am sure the driver hasn't slept well over it.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #1565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!



http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/0...374751101.html

Francisco Jose Garzon Amo is the criminal!
no comment
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The media are trying to find someone to blame, and given the circumstances it looks like the driver has become the target. To me, it appears like he's someone who enjoys his job and likes to share, nothing more.
[...]
I wouldn't put too much confidence in everything the media publishes about the driver, the situation is bad enough as it is and I am sure the driver hasn't slept well over it.
You guys are crazy. Based on what we know at the moment (if it's confirmed, of course) I don't see how the driver could not be at least AMONG the people at fault. Hard to imagine what could have brought him to overspeed by 100 km/h. Loss of situational awareness? Again, in such a case he was due to slow down anyway. This automatically puts the driver's quality of sleep out of the current priorities' list.
And, media sensationalism has nothing to do with this.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #1567
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Speeding is speeding. In that situation, I don't see how you can not level the majority of the blame on the person in control of the train.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:35 PM   #1568
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the driver is guilty and is pretty evident and no matter what the Unions says to defend him or the fans..

Im a big fan of high speed trains, but in order to defend the industry we must to admit that it was a human error and there are responsibles and is obvious who is...

neglecting it, only damages more the image of the industry to the public opinon.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #1569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeOff View Post
it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.
A high speed train driver driving at high speed is an 'adict' to velocity and 'break the law'?


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Get this troll out of here.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #1570
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
Until someone refutes the alleged quote from the guy himself, I don't see any other culprit in the accident.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #1571
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Did the driver go too fast through the bend: YES.


Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO


It is a ridiculous oversight to have installed it this way, and it should have had banners, flashing lights, fireworks, etc. to warn drivers of the necessary speed decrease to undertake, since apparently they didn't think about having the ERTMS stretch end at about 100 km/h.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:46 PM   #1572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
Until someone refutes the alleged quote from the guy himself, I don't see any other culprit in the accident.
High speed rail, especially in corners, should not give anyone the opportunity to speed. The system in place here allowed him to go 110 kilometers per hour FASTER than the speed allowed... that's a failure of proper HSR implementation.
Heads should role for this amount of negligence, and this train driver should be fired, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous. It's like telling your kid it's ok to cycle on the edge of a cliff, and then only blaming your kid for being a bad cyclist when he falls in the cliff, and not yourself for letting him cycle there in the first place.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #1573
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Probably a human error of the driver, yes (unless he had had a faint). But if the railways system is not able to stop the train, or at least slow it down, then the system is absolutely wrong! There have always been human errors, and there will always be. You can not let a train going twice as fast as the speed limit, even not if the driver is losing his consciousness or forgets to break the train!
Who of us did never make a mistake? Is there any one here that has never in his life accidentally avoid a traffic sign? If you do it driving your car, you may kill 3-4 people, if you have bad luck. A train driver can kill one hundred people (and actually killed at least 78). It is never, never acceptable that something like this could happen just because the driver had an oversight!
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #1574
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I think it is better to wait a little bit to get some information about what happened. I'm not saying the driver is off the hook nor do I know anything more than reported, but there are many things that could have happened and I'd rather not jump to conclusion so early in the process.

As it usually happens in accidents involving segregated rail, or airplane, or other automated systems, there are many safeguards to prevent accidents, and often it takes not just once, but several violations/failures/concatenated issues to produce such a major accident. So I'll wait until more information comes out.

===========================

A side note: the commission that is leading the tender process for the 528km-long Brazilian High Speed Line (called TAV-Brasil) announced that Renfe (which entered the tender in a partnership with Adif and Ineco) is going to be excluded from the possibility of bidding for the project, which requires a 10-year long record of no train passenger fatalities on high-speed services for the operator, reason for which the Chinese had also been excluded.

===========================

Since the tragedy happened, I hope it produces at least a push for widespread implementation of ERTMS, especially in countries where the national systems are inherently dangerous by design (beyond Spain, the SCMT comes to mind as well).

The conventional Spanish rail network is not that big or dense. So they should think of large-scale adoption of ERTMS. Italy should do the same.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #1575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO
I am inclined to disagree. If you're assigned to operate a certain route, you should be WELL TRAINED to know all the intricacies on the route, particularly visual signalling and speed limits. The fact that this 80 km/h limit comes RIGHT after a stretch of 200 km/h track bears NO significant blame on the accident. As the person in control of the train, you should know that even though your current limit is 200, a section of track with a lower limit is approaching, and as such, you should act accordingly to assure the train is within that new limit before entering that section of track.

What you're saying is akin to an engineer on New Jersey Transit travelling at say, 70 mph, and then blowing past a station he should have stopped at because, "Oh oops. I forgot there was a station here."

Whether this is driver negligence or ignorance doesn't matter. Don't blame this incident on the lack of "proper signalling."
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #1576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Did the driver go too fast through the bend: YES.


Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO


It is a ridiculous oversight to have installed it this way, and it should have had banners, flashing lights, fireworks, etc. to warn drivers of the necessary speed decrease to undertake, since apparently they didn't think about having the ERTMS stretch end at about 100 km/h.
This is one of the best comments about the whole unhappy affair of the accident in Spain.
Of course a driver can not be expected to rely on visual signs at speeds of 200 km/h.
This part of the track has a built in design fault and therefore the main responsibility should be placed with the track authorities.
Murphy's Law applies in all countries.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #1577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
I am inclined to disagree. If you're assigned to operate a certain route, you should be WELL TRAINED to know all the intricacies on the route, particularly visual signalling and speed limits. The fact that this 80 km/h limit comes RIGHT after a stretch of 200 km/h track bears NO significant blame on the accident. As the person in control of the train, you should know that even though your current limit is 200, a section of track with a lower limit is approaching, and as such, you should act accordingly to assure the train is within that new limit before entering that section of track.

What you're saying is akin to an engineer on New Jersey Transit travelling at say, 70 mph, and then blowing past a station he should have stopped at because, "Oh oops. I forgot there was a station here."

Whether this is driver negligence or ignorance doesn't matter. Don't blame this incident on the lack of "proper signalling."
You are ignoring the principles of systems safety developed over last 40 years, such as double fail-safe redundancy, forgiving-design for human operation etc.

Speed being the second most critical element of rail dynamic safety (after only unauthorized movement on occupied track), any half-decent system of rail safety shall provide some redundancy for the possibility the standard procedure doesn't work.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #1578
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Originally Posted by Never give up View Post
This is one of the best comments about the whole unhappy affair of the accident in Spain.
Of course a driver can not be expected to rely on visual signs at speeds of 200 km/h.
This part of the track has a built in design fault and therefore the main responsibility should be placed with the track authorities.
Murphy's Law applies in all countries.
When people stop relying on their own memories of route features (landscape, overpasses, tunnels, crossovers, etc) to let them know where they are and when they should begin applying brakes, and begin to rely on track signalling / cab signalling to tell them these things, you begin to enter into an area where it is now permissible to shift blame off the train engineer and to people installing signalling equipment. You know, there was once a time when you actually needed skill to operate a train.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #1579
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this train driver should be fired
Fired? If proven guilty, he'll spend many years in prison and his life is destroyed anyway (with all this conscience nightmare among else).

The legal responsibility of safety system planners and/or providers is a separate issue.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #1580
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I am inclined to disagree.
I said if the drivers was to blamed for INSTALLING THE SYSTEM that way. You say you disagree. Are you saying the driver helped install the system?
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