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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:02 PM   #1581
Silly_Walks
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Originally Posted by eu01 View Post
Fired? If proven guilty, he'll spend many years in prison and his life is destroyed anyway (all these conscience issues among else).
That's exactly why I said fired. His conscience will eat him alive.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #1582
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You are ignoring the principles of systems safety developed over last 40 years, such as double fail-safe redundancy, forgiving-design for human operation etc.

Speed being the second most critical element of rail dynamic safety (after only unauthorized movement on occupied track), any half-decent system of rail safety shall provide some redundancy for the possibility the standard procedure doesn't work.
While true, my issue here is that people are using that redundancy / or lack thereof/ to shift blame completely off of the driver. In the end, we will most likely see some kind of penalty for both the driver AND whoever was responsible for signalling that stretch of trackage.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #1583
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I am inclined to disagree. If you're assigned to operate a certain route, you should be WELL TRAINED to know all the intricacies on the route, particularly visual signalling and speed limits. The fact that this 80 km/h limit comes RIGHT after a stretch of 200 km/h track bears NO significant blame on the accident [...]
Dunno, I find it absurd that there wasn't a further layer of safety beyond the driver. On the other hand, the network is continuously evolving so the abrupt change of speed category might have been a temporary situation. In any case one thing is saying that the fault is shared, other is saying that the driver is not at fault at all, as some here seem to imply. In my mind the only way he could be acquitted in a future trial (again, if all current info is confirmed) would be if the traffic personnel outright FAILED TO BRIEF him about the standing speed limitations and/or there was no signalization in the area.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:05 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I said if the drivers was to blamed for INSTALLING THE SYSTEM that way. You say you disagree. Are you saying the driver helped install the system?
If you want to assail my English, you have another thing coming to you. Perhaps you should read the rest of my post first. And respond to that instead.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #1585
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If you want to assail my English, you have another thing coming to you. Perhaps you should read the rest of my post first. And respond to that instead.
Perhaps you should read mine, instead of replying to something you THINK I said.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #1586
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Dunno, I find it absurd that there wasn't a further layer of safety beyond the driver. On the other hand, the network is continuously evolving so the abrupt change of speed category might have been a temporary situation. In any case one thing is saying that the fault is shared, other is saying that the driver is not at fault at all, as some here seems to imply. In my mind the only way he could be acquitted in a future trial (again, if all current info is confirmed) would be if the traffic personnel outright FAILED TO BRIEF him about the standing speed limitations.
I wholly agree. I would also find it ridiculous if he was not given the proper training and instruction to operate this particular route, and yet was given clearance to, and assigned to run it anyway. But that's a whole 'nother story for debate later, if that indeed turns out to be the case.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #1587
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Perhaps you should read mine, instead of replying to something you THINK I said.
You're funny. My reply was clearly aimed at the point that from my perspective, it doesn't matter whether or not the driver was involved with installation of anything, but rather that he should have been aware of what he should have been doing while operating that route, advanced signalling system or not. You clearly did not go back to read my response and, here's the key point: ANALYZE it.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #1588
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There is something that I do not understand about this whole situation.
Train drivers, especially high speed train drivers must pass rigorous and periodical psychological examinations, before being allowed to drive? Isn't that the case also in Spain?
So, if he was sane, why was he speeding at more than twice the speed on that bend? Because no person in his/her right mind would ever do such a thing. Not when he/she has to take care of hundreds of lives.
Or if he wasn't sane, how come he was allowed to drive a train?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #1589
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Originally Posted by mpeculea View Post
There is something that I do not understand about this whole situation.
Train drivers, especially high speed train drivers must pass rigorous and periodical psychological examinations, before being allowed to drive? Isn't that the case also in Spain?
So, if he was sane, why was he speeding at more than twice the speed on that bend? Because no person in his/her right mind would ever do such a thing. Not when he/she has to take care of hundreds of lives.
Or if he wasn't sane, how come he was allowed to drive a train?
You should go back and re-read the last 2 or so pages of the thread before you make a comment that indicates you haven't.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #1590
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You guys are crazy. Based on what we know at the moment (if it's confirmed, of course) I don't see how the driver could not be at least AMONG the people at fault. Hard to imagine what could have brought him to overspeed by 100 km/h. Loss of situational awareness? Again, in such a case he was due to slow down anyway. This automatically puts the driver's quality of sleep out of the current priorities' list.
And, media sensationalism has nothing to do with this.
I am not saying the driver is not guilty, it is pretty clear he is at fault and he fully realizes it. The driver has made a very serious error, for which he needs to be trialed. After all, 80 people have died because of the disaster.

Loss of situational awareness can happen at any time, I've even had it happen while I was driving my car home. At one moment I was approaching a bridge (I has to pass two), a couple of moments later I realized that I had already passed the 1st bridge. "Oh, I'm here already?" was the first thing which crossed my mind, followed by "whoa this isn't good, luckily I'll be home in 5 minutes". Lack of sleep, stress, and boredom (because of repetitiveness) can contribute to this.

Media sensationalism has got everything to do with this: the pictures posted on his Facebook page are now being used against him, the media does not take into account the circumstances, and he is being judged upon without getting a fair trial.

Furthermore, I am convinced that the responsibility for a train full of passengers should not solely rest on the shoulders of the driver. The design of the line is dangerous and the technical systems to ensure the safety of passengers were obviously not in place. The planners and engineers at ADIF who were responsible for the layout of the line and its signaling systems need to be interviewed as well. Even if the situation is only temporary, safeguards need to be in place.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:28 PM   #1591
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You're funny. My reply was clearly aimed at the point that from my perspective, it doesn't matter whether or not the driver was involved with installation of anything, but rather that he should have been aware of what he should have been doing while operating that route, advanced signalling system or not. You clearly did not go back to read my response and, here's the key point: ANALYZE it.
You are accusing me of things of which you yourself are a culprit.
I never said the driver is without blame, in fact I said the opposite.

But I also think the setup in this case had an inherit flaw and was doomed to fail, no matter the driver training.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:28 PM   #1592
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[...] Media sensationalism has got everything to do with this: the pictures posted on his Facebook page are now being used against him, the media does not take into account the circumstances, and he is being judged upon without getting a fair trial.
Media sensationalism has nothing to do *with the fact that he IS at fault*. This is what I wrote, reread my post pls. I tend to agree on all the rest, except the words "a very serious error" are not fully adequate to the circumstances. Also, one has to keep in mind that: 1 - this is not a car, it is a train. To be speeding by 100 km/h the driver had to lose his situational awareness for more than a few seconds, since a long time is needed to brake a train from 190 km/h to less than 80 km/h. And 2 - by the looks of it there was a second driver serving, had he also lost awareness simultaneously with his colleague? Now that would be peculiar.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #1593
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Media sensationalism has nothing to do *with the fact that he IS at fault*. This is what I wrote, reread my post pls. Agree on all the rest, except the words "a very serious error" are not fully adequate to the circumstances.
I don't think he did it on purpose, so I am cautious about calling him a criminal. I can't think of a better word for what happened.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #1594
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I don't think he did it on purpose, so I am cautious about calling him a criminal. I can't think of a better word for what happened.
An involuntary massslaughterer (in concourse with others or not) is called a criminal in any country's penal code, so I don't see why you should be cautious about it. Human piety is a different question, I understand what you mean but calling him a milder way doesn't change the situation.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #1595
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With more than 200 people onboard and considering how violent the crash was (looking at the video), it's amazing that the death toll is limited to 80. Both this and the Asiana 777 show how safe modern transportation hardware is, humans, is still the weakest link.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #1596
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Both this and the Asiana 777 show how safe modern transportation hardware is, humans, is still the weakest link.
The hardware might be safe, but if you don't implement it, as was the case here, it still does you no good.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #1597
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Have we already ruled out some technical malfunction which prevented him from braking? Unlikely you might say, but we just don't know yet...
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #1598
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Have we already ruled out some technical malfunction which prevented him from braking? Unlikely you might say, but we just don't know yet...
Haven't ruled it out, but if we are to believe the driver's own words, he thought himself he had made a mistake. Until we know more I'm gonna follow his words and say it was driver error.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:10 PM   #1599
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People are ignoring that the driver called to the control, very nervous and before the derailment because the speed of the train was 190km/h.

We know what happened but not why, I think we should stop this senseless argue until new data is released. It won't be a mistery, there are video records, a "black box" and the driver survived and is going to declare at the court as soon as it's healthy enough.

It seems that there are enough data to know what exactly happened, why don't we wait until that data is processed by experts?
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #1600
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According to Renfe, the train was checked yesterday morning and no faults were found. Technical faults can develop en-route, but that is highly unusual (that's why high speed trains are inspected regularely) and such mission critical systems have safeguards in place to prevent disasters like these from happening.
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